What did they expect to happen? (about chaos in Iraq) - U2 Feedback

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Old 04-13-2003, 07:19 AM   #1
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What did they expect to happen? (about chaos in Iraq)

The US and UK had been planning this attack on Iraq for a long time. They'd had troops in the region for many months before the bombing started. They'd evidently put a lot of thought into the military operation.

So why on earth did they not put so much thought into what would happen once Saddam's regime fell?

It was never in doubt that the US/UK would win this war. The US has a military larger than it's next 15 competitors, and Iraq has been devastated by 12 years of sanctions. Of course the US/UK would win! They knew that from the first day of planning this war. So why didn't they think about what would come after?

Why didn't they think about how to protect hospitals and schools which are being looted? Why didn't they think about how to protect Iraq's museums which have 7000 years of Iraqi history. Why didn't they have any kind of plan to keep the Iraqi people safe once Saddam was gone.

If the US/UK could protect oil fields in Southern Iraq (and let's not forget, that was one of their first actions when the war began) then they can protect hospitals from being looted and they can stop Iraq's museums being looted.
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Old 04-13-2003, 07:31 AM   #2
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A good question. But unfortunately, I think we all know the answer.
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Old 04-13-2003, 08:55 AM   #3
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Of course I can understand that ppl are pushing the envelope after a dictatorship like Saddams was.
But this is not really a justification for despoiling hospitals, museums and schools. They are robbing themselves.

The Britisch troops in Basra behaved exemplarly compared to the US troops in Bagdad. Obviously the destruction of the rest of Iraq's infra structure is on behalf for the USA, cause then it is necessary to set Iraq under US administration, at least for a while.

And the evidently US -support for ACHMAD CHALABI makes me worry for the future of Iraq, please have in mind that he is previously convicted in Jordania for corruption and that he does'nt have a "basemant" in Iraq.
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Old 04-13-2003, 09:19 AM   #4
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Well, whatever it is, I heard that the US is trying to control it as best they can.

Quote:
Looting eased in Baghdad with the return of the little headaches of everyday life - traffic jams.

US helicopters appeared in the skies over Baghdad looking for looters and in Basra local police officers appeared on the street again.

Iraqi police are working with US Marines to set up joint patrols in the Iraqi capital, which will start in a day or two.

People felt secure enough to come out of their homes and drive around, causing the late morning traffic jams so common to Baghdad life. Buses started running in the centre of town.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...p?story=396752

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Old 04-13-2003, 10:35 AM   #5
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well i think when the Berlin Wall fell for the first few days/weeks this prolly happened as well.

Remeber ppl 25 years these ppl have been caged up and living under fear..
I think the press is trying to exploit this a bit, things well eventually settle down.
I think these are growing pains of a new nation..

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Old 04-13-2003, 10:42 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
well i think when the Berlin Wall fell for the first few days/weeks this prolly happened as well.

Remeber ppl 25 years these ppl have been caged up and living under fear..
I think the press is trying to exploit this a bit, things well eventually settle down.
I think these are growing pains of a new nation..

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Diamond maybe there is someone who can enlighten us further


but I don't recall hearing of much looting after the berlin wall came down.




and Tarik.....I'd at least wait till all the fighting subsides in bagdhad there are still pckets of resistance whereas basra has been under siege longer.


Right now....we're in it...I'm willing to wait and see the results before passing judgement.



People should also understand that the responsibility of the iraqi ppl is important too


as you put it they are robbing themselves.
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Old 04-13-2003, 10:53 AM   #7
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i do think the looting is subsiding..
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Old 04-13-2003, 11:32 AM   #8
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I think I'll go steal some ancient paintings from the Getty Museum. After all, I'll only be robbing myself, so no biggie. Hell, while I'm at it, I'm going to go swipe some chicken from the market down the street. Not to worry though, I'm only robbing myself.
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Old 04-13-2003, 11:39 AM   #9
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haha, good one Pubster
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Old 04-13-2003, 11:45 AM   #10
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Yes, well, I felt compelled to address one of the more ridiculous rationalizations I've read on this board as of late.
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Old 04-13-2003, 12:01 PM   #11
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I don't buy this comparison with the Berlin Wall, anyway. One thing that made all of that stuff in Central and Eastern Europe so amazing is that it was all done with very little bloodshed. The dictators resigned. That's why Czechoslovakia's revolution was called the "Velvet Revolution". A little confrontation to begin with, but then a bloodless revolution. This sure as heck didn't happen in Iraq. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy if the Iraqis are happy. I just don't think they're particularly happy with this looting and I'm glad security is improving to the point where their biggest headache is a traffic jam. I'm sure they'll take that considering all the crud they've put up with and been through.
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Old 04-14-2003, 11:50 PM   #12
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In Iraq itself, art experts and ordinary demonstrators made clear they were far angrier at President George Bush than they were at the looters, noting that the only building US forces seemed genuinely interested in protecting was the Ministry of Oil.

Published on Monday, April 14, 2003 by the lndependent/UK
US Blamed for Failure to Stop Sacking of Museum
by Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles and David Keys, Archaeology Correspondent

The United States was fiercely criticized around the world yesterday for its failure to protect Baghdad's Iraq National Museum where, under the noses of US troops, looters stole or destroyed priceless artifacts up to 7,000 years old.



In Iraq itself, art experts and ordinary demonstrators made clear they were far angrier at President George Bush than they were at the looters, noting that the only building US forces seemed genuinely interested in protecting was the Ministry of Oil.


Not a single pot or display case remained intact, according to witnesses, after a 48-hour rampage at the museum perhaps the world's greatest repository of Mesopotamian culture. US forces intervened only once, for half an hour, before leaving and allowing the looters to continue.

Archaeologists, poets, cultural historians and international legal experts, including many in America itself, accused Washington of violating the 1954 Hague Convention on the protection of artistic treasures in wartime.

British experts were distraught at the loss. "This is a terrible tragedy. Iraq is the cradle of civilization and this was a museum which contained a large portion of the world's cultural heritage. The British Museum stands ready to help our Iraqi colleagues in whatever way we can," Dr John Curtis said. He is keeper of the Department of the Ancient Near East at the British Museum, which holds an important collection of Mesopotamian treasures.

Dr Jeremy Black a specialist on ancient Iraq at Oxford University, said: "What has befallen Baghdad and Mosul museums was foreseen by archaeologists worldwide. Meetings were even held with the American military before the war to warn of the extreme likelihood of looting should an invasion occur.

"Sadly, however, the occupying forces failed to implement in practical terms the measures to protect Iraq's and the world's cultural heritage. US and British forces must now act immediately to safeguard what remains in the museums and at key archaeological sites."

A Chicago law professor, Patty Gerstenblith of the DePaul School, said the rampage was "completely inexcusable and avoidable".

In Iraq itself, art experts and ordinary demonstrators made clear they were far angrier at President George Bush than they were at the looters, noting that the only building US forces seemed genuinely interested in protecting was the Ministry of Oil.


US Marines moved quickly to protect the Iraqi oil ministry in Baghdad, surrounding the complex with razor-sharp barbed wire. US-controlled Iraq should return to the oil market within months. (AFP/EPA/Christophe Simon)

One Iraqi archaeologist, Raid Abdul Ridhar Muhammad, told The New York Times: "If a country's civilization is looted, as ours has been here, its history ends. Please tell this to President Bush. Please remind him that he promised to liberate the Iraqi people, but that this is not a liberation, this is a humiliation."

Dr Eleanor Robson, a member of the council of the British School of Archaeology in Iraq, said: "The looting of the Iraq Museum is on a par with blowing up Stonehenge or ransacking the Bodleian Library. For world culture, it is a global catastrophe." Among the many treasures that have vanished, perhaps for ever, are a solid gold harp from the Sumerian era, the sculptured head of a woman from the Sumerian city of Uruk, a Ram in the Thicket statue from Ur, stone carvings, gold jewelry, tapestry fragments, ivory figurines of goddesses, friezes of soldiers, ceramic jars and urns.

The museum held the tablets with Hammurabi's Code, one of the world's earliest legal documents, early texts describing the epic of Gilgamesh and mathematical treatises that reveal a knowledge of Pythagorean geometry 1,500 years before Pythagoras.

Some of the treasures might have been removed from the museum before the war for safekeeping, but there is no indication of where they could be. Saddam Hussein may have taken some artifacts for display in his private residences.

Curators said the looters came in two categories the angry and the poor, most of them Shias, who were bent largely on destruction and grabbing whatever they could to earn some money; and more discriminating, middle-class people who knew exactly what they were looking for. Some of the more famous pieces may be too easily recognizable to be sold on the international market, leading some experts to fear they will be destroyed.

Although the museum is only one of hundreds of buildings to fall prey to looters, its status as one of the most important repositories of ancient civilization is likely to inflame particular resentment towards the Americans, in the Arab world and beyond.

Several commentators are already starting to see more sinister motives in the US troops' neglect. Professor Giovanni Bergamini, curator of the Egyptian museum in Turin, said: "I don't know ... Perhaps it was only fathomless ignorance." He added: "But that's quite bad enough in itself."


Parts of a beheaded sculpture lies among rubble after a mob of looters ransacked and looted Iraq's largest archeological museum in Baghdad(AFP/Patrick Baz)

THE LIKELY FATE OF THE STOLEN ANTIQUITIES

The antiquities being looted in Iraq fall into two different categories.

In terms of serious money up to several million pounds per item the more internationally famous statues, bas-reliefs, early manuscripts and groups of ivories are the more difficult, though lucrative, items to smuggle. Worldwide there are probably only a few hundred potential buyers for the more well-known material.

Such items might include the celebrated Sumerian stone statue of Dudu, the Prime Minister to the royal court of Lagash, dating back to 2600BC, or the 2300BC image of the god Abu and his consort. These would have to be sold in great secrecy. The larger objects are in danger of being deliberately damaged and then made unrecognizable to make it more difficult for police and others to trace them.

In terms of pure volume of illicit traffic, the smaller, often unpublished items such as coins, cylinder seals, cuneiform tablets, pottery, figurines, flint tools and bronze weapons are likely to dominate sectors of the antiquities market. They will probably end up at the art markets of Paris, via Jordan, Israel, and Switzerland, New York, London and Tokyo.

Their value, in total, could quite conceivably run to billions of pounds with the profits lining the pockets of the more unscrupulous of the European and North American-based dealers. Somewhere between Switzerland and antique shops in Britain and elsewhere, all knowledge of an object's Iraqi provenance will be lost.

The museum's computer system, with the inventory of its contents, is understood to have been smashed but whether the hard disks have been damaged is not yet
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Old 04-15-2003, 12:03 AM   #13
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thanks for that
u always find the neatest articles to post


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Old 04-15-2003, 06:32 AM   #14
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Thanks for posting the article, deep. It's really shocking to hear what's happening to Iraq's national treasures.

I know lots of people suggested that the looting is eventually subsiding (it'll have to: there'll be nothing left to loot soon!) but my point was that it seems there was a complete lack of planning before this war started. The US and UK knew this would happen and yet they completely failed to prepare for it. And I really do find it disgusting that they can find people to protect Iraqi oil wells, but claim they aren't able to protect hospitals and museums with thousands of years of Iraq's heritage. I think what's happened in Iraq in the last week will be remembered by Iraqis for a long time and has caused a lot of resentment towards the US and UK.
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Old 04-15-2003, 01:02 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
Thanks for posting the article, deep. It's really shocking to hear what's happening to Iraq's national treasures.

I know lots of people suggested that the looting is eventually subsiding (it'll have to: there'll be nothing left to loot soon!) but my point was that it seems there was a complete lack of planning before this war started. The US and UK knew this would happen and yet they completely failed to prepare for it. And I really do find it disgusting that they can find people to protect Iraqi oil wells, but claim they aren't able to protect hospitals and museums with thousands of years of Iraq's heritage. I think what's happened in Iraq in the last week will be remembered by Iraqis for a long time and has caused a lot of resentment towards the US and UK.
I agree. Why did they protect the oil wells but not hospitals and this museum? I can't believe the things that got ripped off. I saw an Iraqi history professor on the news yesterday in tears. I don't blame him. This hurts big time. It's like having your birthplace ripped off.
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