What did they expect to happen? (about chaos in Iraq) - Page 7 - U2 Feedback

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Old 04-19-2003, 09:52 PM   #91
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Dreadsox, I think you are taking what Scarletwine and I and others are saying in the wrong way, and maybe a bit too personally. Maybe I am still not being clear in what I am trying to get across, so one last clarification:

No one here is suggesting that the soldiers are bad in any way, or that we think artifacts themselves are worth more than human life, American or otherwise. But neither is OIL is my point. These historical artifacts are every bit as important, in a different way, to the future and the people of Iraq as the oil. That is the crux of what I am saying. The fact that people put cultural things like this on the bottom of the priority list annoys me to no end.

I know you are not an arrogant person at all, and I'm sorry if I offended you. I meant that your tone was arrogant in that you are sounding very DISDAINFUL....like who needs a museum anyway.....it's a frill...not worth protecting.... Not only are these artifacts unworthy of death, but they are unworthy of a SCRATCH or a DROP of blood....and the fact that you singled out American blood made it seem like losing American blood is worse than anyone else's.....I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but non-Americans are a bit more sensitive to the whole "Americans are more important than everyone else" thing, that's all.

And the point I was making about the police is perfectly valid and relevant I think. If policemen put their lives on the line to protect things at home, I don't see how preventing the looters from getting to the museum is any different. Soldiers get hurt in a wide variety of duties during a war. And as I said, if not the army, then they should have had some special riot police sent in...not just for the artifacts, but also for the hospitals and everything else they might have needed.

That's all I am saying on this topic. It's my Bday, and I don't feel like fighting right now.
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Old 04-19-2003, 10:13 PM   #92
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oh yeah..happy 33rd bday mrs edge..

diamond
bruno..
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Old 04-19-2003, 10:39 PM   #93
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I am 32!!!!!

But thank you.

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Old 04-19-2003, 11:13 PM   #94
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Old 04-19-2003, 11:20 PM   #95
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Scartletwine,

I believe you were questioning the lack of military experience of Mr. Rumsfeld. I would just like to state for the record that he served in the NAVY on active duty for 6 years! He then spent 33 years in the Navy Reserve! He is not lacking in military experience.
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Old 04-20-2003, 03:24 AM   #96
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What an utterly disappointing thread. Too many people are too quick to jump to assumptions. Too many, quick to turn a viewpoint into fuel for personal attack.
Idiosyncracy, please refrain from attacking people.
I hope everyone else can take a breather. Realise that its not necessarily about putting life over artifacts. Placing importance on loss of artifacts is not opportunistic and therefore taking pot shots on the military. Pride in what the military has achieved is not writing off the value of this loss. And so on. Its coming from all directions in here. Please guys, respect other's opinions and not read into something that may not be there. Its possible to be respectful while completely disagreeing with someone.
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Old 04-20-2003, 03:13 PM   #97
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Angela--I agree with you. But, I also don't think some people knew that some other people had such strong feelings about artifacts and such. They don't share these feelings. This isn't their area of interest. It happens to be really close to my heart. They didn't quite understand that the destruction felt like a kick in the . Naturally some people were pissed off. This is no excuse for personal attacks, of course. But it did make some of us feel like some of the planners were 's because it wasn't stopped. I don't think it's necessarily guarding the artifacts vs. getting killed. We have security at work in the form of specially trained police officers and security guards. Unfortunately in November a security guard was killed at another library. There was no excuse for this, of course. The killer was a and he got arrested by the cops and jailed. I don't know why this happened. It was excruciating, especially since it was two days after the suicide of one of my co-workers. Can you say "stress"??? Most of the time this work isn't particularly dangerous. These particular workers who are strictly security are not regular police officers and don't carry guns because they don't need them the way cops do. But we've gone through the whole controversy, I don't need to rehash it. We underestimated the volatility of the issue.
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Old 04-24-2003, 05:39 AM   #98
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Hello,

I just saw this article on the BBC Website after reading a newsgroup post about it:

Quote:
Newsman on Iraq looting charge

A US television news employee has been charged with smuggling artworks and monetary bonds from Iraq.
Benjamin James Johnson - an engineer for Fox news - stands accused of bringing into the US 12 paintings taken from a palace belonging to Saddam Hussein's son Uday and also of making false statements to the police.

Mr Johnson, who was embedded with US troops during the Iraq war, was arrested at Dulles International Airport near Washington. Fox says he has been fired.

A US Government official warned returning soldiers and journalists that looting would not be tolerated.

"These items are not souvenirs or 'war trophies' but stolen goods that belong to the people of Iraq," Deputy Secretary of Homeland Security Gordon England said.

He was speaking at a news conference where he displayed looted objects including gold-plated weapons.

'Presents from Iraqis'

When stopped by Customs officials, Mr Johnson declared just $20 worth of cigarettes.

But a search of his luggage revealed the 12 paintings from Iraq.

Mr Johnson reportedly told the officials he had been given the paintings by Iraqi citizens, but later admitted that they had been removed from presidential palaces in Baghdad.

The paintings were part of a haul of stolen goods put on display by the US Customs Department.

Several other journalists and one American soldier are also under investigation.

US officials say the paintings themselves are not of any great value.

Online auctions

Customs agents at a US airport believe they have seized at least one item taken from Baghdad museum, which was looted of thousands of valuable artefacts as Saddam Hussein's regime collapsed.

Many objects from Iraq, looted both at the end of the first Gulf War in 1991 and during the last, have already started turning up for sale at online auctioneers, experts say.

"You won't find the big, expensive pieces on the internet, but the smaller things that won't command as much attention," Dr Neil Brodie of the UK's Illicit Antiquities Research Centre told BBC News Online.

"It's these pieces that are much harder to track down."

Artistic co-operation

The US has come in for intense criticism from archaeologists and art historians for its failure to protect Baghdad's cultural heritage from looters when lawlessness broke out.

Three White House cultural advisers resigned in protest, and Washington subsequently announced plans to send FBI agents to join Interpol police in the recovery operation, both inside and outside Iraq.

The FBI says it will work closely with art collectors, auction houses, museum curators and online sellers to track down any Iraqi pieces put up for sale.

As well as the national museum in Baghdad, a museum in Mosul was looted and the capital's Islamic Library, which housed ancient manuscripts including one of the oldest surviving copies of the Koran, was ravaged by fire.

The UN's cultural agency Unesco has called the loss and destruction already suffered "a disaster".
So unfortunately it isn't just the Iraqi people who are doing this, but also journalists and (at least) a coalition soldier. It's sad how they think they are entitled to act.

C ya!

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Old 04-24-2003, 09:36 AM   #99
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One of my jobs in the Military Police after Desert Storm was to find contraband coming back into the United States hidden in the equiptment. I worked the Ports of Galveston, Beaumont, and Mobile. I seemed to be quite good at finding weapons that were being brought back to the US as souveneirs. There will be many more examples of this I am sure.

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Old 04-24-2003, 01:14 PM   #100
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Thanks for the article Dread. I'm glad people have gotten back some of the loot. I just hope they can get some of the other stuff back. There's no telling just who did this, what with at least one soldier and a U.S. reporter apparently being involved in the looting. This sucks.
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Old 04-24-2003, 01:35 PM   #101
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OOPS!!!!! I goofed! Thanks to Popmartjin for posting the article. I think some medication I'm taking is causing brain damage.
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Old 04-24-2003, 01:41 PM   #102
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Ah, nevermind.
At least you have a brain.

C ya!

Marty
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Old 04-24-2003, 02:16 PM   #103
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Popmartijn:

sorry for posting the same bbc-thing to another thread, i haven't seen your posting



too much information - not enough time
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