What did they expect to happen? (about chaos in Iraq)

[Dreadsox]

I think this statement can go both ways. There are some that may think this government (but I think it's more -this administration-) can't do anything right, but there are also those who believe they can't do wrong. You and I know they are both wrong.

I agree with this.

There are those on both sides that seem to have blinders on when it comes to this administration.

Peace

 

[Dreadsox]

verte

I agree with this too verte

 

[anitram]

As a soldier....there is no way I signed my name on the line to protect a museum. As I said in my statement, put me in front of a hospital or a building vital to Iraq's future. Sorry, my life is not worth an artifact, nor is my children's life if they are in the service.

Ummm, I thought you protect what you're ordered to protect. I wasn't aware that soldiers had a choice in the matter?

In any case, it's sad. All of it. Everybody has a right to determine what they think is more valuable, and I'm not even arguing that a life is more or less valuable than an artifact - like Mrs Edge said, they're apples and oranges. What I take offense to is diamond's inane 'small potatoes' comment. It reeks of cultural ignorance.

 

[diamond]

some would say that..

others would say the value of a human life supercedes the value of an artifact.

peace

db9

 

[verte76]

some would say that..

others would say the value of a human life supercedes the value of an artifact.

peace

db9

I hear ya, and I'm sorry I acted like such a about the whole thing. I feel differently. Someone would have to kill me to get their hands on one of those manuscripts. I'm serious. I guess it sounds sick, but yes, if I had to give my life to save an artifact or an illuminated Koranic manuscript, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I can understand why some would find this morally objectionable. If I were married and/or had children (I'm not, don't) it'd be different. For someone who is not married this is not against Catholic moral teaching. For someone who is, it's different. As a practicing Catholic this is more or less my yardstick.

 

[deep]

Verte,

Don?t let them frame the argument.

It never was a question of a human life for an artifact.

Are they saying they would give a human life for a drop or barrel of oil.

The Kuwaiti oil fields could not be protected and were set ablaze. They recovered.

Oil is replaceable these items are not.

If you ask the Iraqi people what was important, saving their culture or some oil wells it would not even be close.

To protect these sites would not have required very much. There would have been no firefight. These were crimes of opportunity.

 

[Dreadsox]

Ummm, I thought you protect what you're ordered to protect. I wasn't aware that soldiers had a choice in the matter?

Yes, soldiers do follow orders.....As far as soldiers having a choice, they are specifically taught in basic training that they must obey lawful orders. Guarding the museum would be a lawful order, but I tell you what, the asshole that gave it deserves a courtmartial if one soldier dies from that order.

If a soldier lost their life guarding a museum I am sorry, but that is not apples and oranges. If my child were in the service, you can bet that I would make certain that the people in charge thought twice in the future about risking American lives to guard a museum. Sorry, it is a no brainer, the life is more valuable than any artifact.

Funny how people are pointing the finger at the US over this, and not the stupid ass people who are acting the way they are.

 

[diamond]

"It never was a question of a human life for an artifact"

it could have been though.
the soldiers never gave the robbers the choice, now did they.?

As far as oil wells, Im sure the US Soilders were standing guard to protect the enviornment..





DB9

 

[Dreadsox]

Verte,

Don?t let them frame the argument.

It never was a question of a human life for an artifact.

Are they saying they would give a human life for a drop or barrel of oil.

The Kuwaiti oil fields could not be protected and were set ablaze. They recovered.

Oil is replaceable these items are not.

If you ask the Iraqi people what was important, saving their culture or some oil wells it would not even be close.

To protect these sites would not have required very much. There would have been no firefight. These were crimes of opportunity.

Come on Deep.....

You make this statement based on what? Please, give me the technical analysis. I want you to provide us with the # of Soldiers in the area, what they were doing instead of guarding the museum. I want you to tell me what threats they were allerted to. Give me numbers of soldiers in the area, and their MOS. Provide me with the expert analysis that it would not have taken much. Show me that the soldiers were off doing something far less important at the time the museum was being looted.

I also want you to tell me with a straight face that this board would not rip apart the USA and the Military if ONE Iraqi citizen were shot and killed looting. PLEASE!

 

[diamond]

Dread just said it all.

You guys act like the US Soldiers were in the museums plundering and pillaging it.

Sure its a SIGNIFICANT LOSS, in War these things happen.

You would have a better arugment if a smart bomb accidently wandered over and accidently blew up the place

thank u
diamond

 

[Screaming Flower]

now i remember why i quit posting in here.

 

[diamond]

 

[deep]

A cultural casualty of war
The U.S. military's failure to stop the looting of the Iraqi National Museum was a strategic blunder.
By Christopher Knight, Times Staff Writer

April 18 2003

One tank. That's about all it would have taken to prevent the wholesale destruction of the Iraqi National Museum in Baghdad last week, where a stellar repository of ancient civilization was looted and trashed after American and British forces entered the city, toppling the ironfisted regime of Saddam Hussein. A mighty American tank or two, and a few watchful soldiers, strategically parked by the front door surely could have prevented the catastrophe, which was reportedly carried out with a blend of randomness and precision. A couple of dozen men, women and even children began the looting one day, hundreds finished it the next.

But, come on now. Let's be serious. Is anybody really surprised that Baghdad's great civic art museum didn't rate a measly tank? That the treasures of ancient Mesopotamia sat unguarded and exposed, ripe for the picking by local scavengers either amateur or professional? The horrendous event was not, after all, a dire outcome of "the fog of war." It was instead a routine example of the fog of the Bush administration, when it comes to matters cultural.

Today it is almost universally accepted that, in the long run-up to the invasion of Iraq, the United States did the dance of international diplomacy with two left feet. Diplomatic negotiation isn't just a matter of bare-knuckled, bottom-line horse trading that forces determined adversaries finally to agree. It's a nuanced give-and-take, an incremental persuasion that rises or falls on an understanding of social mores and the complex pageant of cultural sensitivities. There's a reason that diplomacy is called an art, not a science or a business.

Art is not this administration's long suit. Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, was asked at a Pentagon press briefing this week whether the military had made a mistake in failing to defend the museum. (The House of Wisdom, Iraq's national library, where the country's historical archives are kept, was also severely damaged.) Noting that the museum was not considered of major importance when sporadic combat operations were still underway in isolated pockets around the sprawling city, Gen. Myers explained, "It's as much as anything a matter of priorities."

We know that, general; we know. Irreplaceable cultural artifacts dating to the dawn of civilization in the Middle East were not a Bush administration priority. That's the problem.

An office building in downtown Baghdad housing the Ministry of Oil was a priority, and a tank or two was dispatched post-haste to secure that hugely valuable site -- even as those sporadic combat operations were still underway around town. But an art museum? Please.

Oil is a one-dimensional asset. It's property that can be bought and sold. This, an administration composed of oil men understands.

Art, on the other hand, is a two-dimensional asset. It's property, yes; the looters know well that it can have significant commercial value, and the illicit trade in antiquities saw its leading indicators take a giant leap last week. But aside from monetary worth, art is also an intangible resource -- one that has immense use-value. It's a repository of meaning, a reservoir of social faith, a talisman of historical identity. Art has benefits that cannot be measured in dollars and cents alone. And it's a value that is critically needed now.

Why? Because whatever the horrendous atrocities perpetrated by Hussein's cruel dictatorship, Iraq today lies in ruin. We, having smashed it, are obliged to play a major role in fixing it. And for that monumental task we need all the assistance we can get. The Iraqi National Museum could have helped.

Not immediately securing the museum was more than just a cultural shame -- although it was certainly that. It was also a gross strategic blunder. The Bush administration squandered an instrument of extraordinary power for rebuilding Iraq, when it desperately needs every useful tool it can get.

Broad skepticism has been voiced around the world about America's capacity to impose democracy on Iraq, a country riven with ethnic, tribal, religious and political differences.

Whatever those manifold cultural distinctions might be, however, they all share one thing: The art, artifacts and archives housed in the Iraqi National Museum and the National Library comprise their common legacy. They're one thing everybody owns. They represent the deep roots of the great tree that spread out its multitude of limbs. And now those roots are severed.

Some of the looted sculptures, vessels, manuscripts and other objects might someday find their way back to the museum and the library. There is speculation, too, that certain critically important works may have been removed from the premises for safekeeping before the war began. And major archeological sites around the country, of which there is no shortage, seem for the moment to be relatively intact. American forces apparently took precautions not to bomb them.

But Baghdad is different. Baghdad is -- well, Baghdad. A thousand years ago it was the glittering cultural capital of an entire region, the extraordinarily productive seat of great art, literature and thought.

Today it's being advanced by a new U.S. foreign policy as another type of regional linchpin -- a catalyst for wider political reform in the Middle East. Baghdad is meant to be a vital hub.

Imagine what it could have meant for the prospects of that hellishly fraught task had foreign armed forces come together to save the cultural treasure that all Iraqis, regardless of affiliation, claim as their own patrimony. Imagine how the glory of one of the world's great art museums might have been useful as an international rallying point. Imagine -- but never mind. Now there is no point.

 

[verte76]

I wasn't particularly thinking about someone giving their life to guard an artifact. I'm just upset about this horrible loss. It's like a death in the family. I'm sorry, I can't help it. Someone would have to kill me to get their hands on that artifact. Ordinarily security at a museum is by the police, not the military, and I understand that this is not the military's function. They're not trained for it. Dread, I don't mean to slam the U.S. The looters were Iraqis. Most Iraqis were nowhere near that museum; most troops were not. There could have been some plan to have police presence at the museum. This stuff was part of the country's economy because these museums used to be quite a tourist attraction. Now that's gone. Bush's own cultural advisers resigned to protest the situation after the looting. I would have done the same thing, resign. This has been extraordinary stressful and upsetting for me. I'm not going to talk about it anymore. It's too upsetting. It's like cutting my own damn throat.

 

[diamond]

Verte-
Actually the looters were not Iraqis..

Please read-
Thursday, April 17, 2003
AP

PARIS ? Professional thieves, likely organized outside Iraq, pillaged the nation's priceless ancient history collections by using the cover of widespread looting -- and vault keys -- to make off with irreplaceable items, art experts and historians said Thursday.

The bandits were so efficient at emptying Iraqi libraries and museums that reports have already surfaced of artifacts appearing on the black market, some experts said. Certain thieves apparently knew exactly what they wanted from the irreplaceable Babylonian, Sumerian and Assyrian collections, and exactly where to find them.

"It looks as if part of the theft was a very, very deliberate, planned action," said McGuire Gibson, president of the American Association for Research in Baghdad. "It really looks like a very professional job."

Gibson was among 30 art experts and cultural historians assembled by the U.N. Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization to assess the damage to Iraq's heritage in the aftermath of the U.S.-led invasion.

In Washington, the FBI announced Thursday it had sent agents to Iraq to assist in recovering stolen antiquities.

"We are firmly committed to doing whatever we can to secure these treasures to the people of Iraq," FBI Director Robert Mueller told a news conference at the Justice Department.

But it remained unclear exactly what was gone and what survived the looting and thievery. With many museum records now in ashes and access to Iraq still cut off, it could take weeks or months to answer those questions.

Establishing a database was a key to finding out what had survived, and tracking down what was stolen, the experts said.

Neil MacGregor, director of the British Museum, said some of the greatest treasures -- including gold jewelry of the Assyrian queens -- were placed in the vaults of the national bank after the 1991 Gulf War. There was no information on whether those items remained inside.

The National Museum, one of the Middle East's most important archaeological repositories, was ransacked. But it was unknown whether one of its greatest treasures, tablets containing Hammurabi's Code, one of the earliest codes of law, were there when the looting began.

The pillaging has ravaged the irreplaceable Babylonian, Sumerian and Assyrian collections that chronicled ancient civilization in Mesopotamia -- the home of modern-day Iraq. Although much of the looting was haphazard, experts said some of it was highly organized.

"They were able to obtain keys from somewhere for the vaults and were able to take out the very important, the very best material," Gibson said. "I have a suspicion it was organized outside the country. In fact, I'm pretty sure it was."

Many at the meeting feared the stolen artifacts have been absorbed into highly organized trafficking rings that ferry the goods through a series of middlemen to collectors in Europe, the United States and Japan.

The FBI was cooperating with the international law enforcement organization Interpol in issuing alerts to all member nations to try to track any sales of the artifacts "on both the open and black markets," Muller said.

Ahead of the war, Iraq's antiquities' authorities gathered artifacts from around the country and moved them to Baghdad's National Museum, assuming the museum would not be bombed, Gibson said.

"They did not count on the museum being looted," he said.

The network of antiquities dealing in Iraq is well-developed, escalating far beyond the ability of authorities to stop it following the 1991 Gulf War. Thousands of antiquities had disappeared from the country even before the current war.

The trafficking feeds off of Iraq's poverty-stricken people, said Salma El Radi, an Iraqi archaeologist. "If you need to feed your family and the only way to do it is by looting a site, you're going to loot a site," El Radi said.

Much anger has been directed at U.S. troops, who stood by and watched as Iraq's treasures were carted off.

Koichiro Matsuura, director-general of Paris-based UNESCO, called Thursday for a U.N. resolution imposing a temporary embargo on trade in Iraqi antiquities. Such a resolution would also call for the return of such items to Iraq, he said.

"To preserve the Iraqi cultural heritage is, in a word, to enable Iraq to successfully make its transition to a new, free and prosperous society," the UNESCO chief said

 

[verte76]

now i remember why i quit posting in here.

After reading a few other notes in this thread, I think we should start a club, the Burned Out Ex-FYM Club. Screw politics. I'm going to Turkey to check out Silk Road antiquities before it's too late.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

That said, the Oil/Field Ministry may very well bring food for the Iraqi people in the long run. So yes, indeed I do find its protection more valuable to the survival of the Iraqi people. That artifact is not their future while the oil industry is.

But there is more to a society than simply its economic potential, and I think the history of a society is valuable to its members. I always remember one of the people who worked at a museum saying to a tv camera "this is destroying our history. What is a country without its history? This was not liberation: it was humiliation."

Also, the artifacts which were destroyed in Iraq aren't only valuable to Iraq: they've valuable to the entire world as they represent the history of the world's first civilisation. Surely that would bring some economic benefits to Iraq, as people would wish to see their museums and would travel to Iraq to do so.

To be honest, I think that the reason many people are so concerned about the oil in Iraq is that it's valued by many people outside of Iraq. Iraq has the second largest oil reserves in the world and the United States dependence on oil reserves is increasing - it's in their interests (and that of many other western countries) to have access to the oil.

 

[Dreadsox]

I wasn't particularly thinking about someone giving their life to guard an artifact. I'm just upset about this horrible loss. It's like a death in the family. I'm sorry, I can't help it. Someone would have to kill me to get their hands on that artifact. Ordinarily security at a museum is by the police, not the military, and I understand that this is not the military's function. They're not trained for it. Dread, I don't mean to slam the U.S. The looters were Iraqis. Most Iraqis were nowhere near that museum; most troops were not. There could have been some plan to have police presence at the museum. This stuff was part of the country's economy because these museums used to be quite a tourist attraction. Now that's gone. Bush's own cultural advisers resigned to protest the situation after the looting. I would have done the same thing, resign. This has been extraordinary stressful and upsetting for me. I'm not going to talk about it anymore. It's too upsetting. It's like cutting my own damn throat.

I have taught Ancient Civ to 4th graders now for 6 years. I studies history in college, and I too am saddened by the loss. Verte, I have noissue with you or your emotions over this loss. I think your posts on this topic have been excellent.

I do think that people can express their feelings without using the situation as a political ploy to point fingers at the US.

It appears that they did not expect so little resistance against the forces moving in, and yes, they apparently were unprepared. I am not happy with the fact that the hospital was looted as well. This is even more troubling to me that it was not a place that was immediately protected.

I think back to the number of times I saw soldiers in which the soldier said, "We did not train for this, " and it really bothers me. All the training in the world we provide soldiers, and these soldiers still were not prepared.

It is interesting that someone had keys for some of the thefts. I wonder when some of these items were stolen if they had the keys.

Peace

 

[U2luv]

An office building in downtown Baghdad housing the Ministry of Oil was a priority, and a tank or two was dispatched post-haste to secure that hugely valuable site -- even as those sporadic combat operations were still underway around town. But an art museum?

One question Diamond...
What does the US military protecting a building that houses the Ministry of Oil have to do with the military protecting the environment?

 

[80sU2isBest]

My honest opinion is still that many doves were just waiting for something to go wrong, and when the looting started they jumped on it. If American soldiers had immediately started policing the area without Iraqi involvement, the doves would be saying things like "Oh look, they're arresting the people they're supposedly "liberating". Look folks, unfortunately there is violence involved in policing, as we have already seen. What I don't get is that the doves didn't want the Coalition to use violence against the oppressive Saddam regime, but they're quite okay with using violence to stop people from stealing things. I just don't get it.

 

[pub crawler]

80's, personally, if I was looking for something to go wrong so I could jump on it, well, I can name many other issues related to the politics, planning and execution of this war that I would be spending a lot of time jumping on.

I think the biggest gripe many have with respect to the Iraqi National Museum looting is that the U.S. military did not anticipate said destruction. That is not my biggest gripe, though.

Since I do not agree with President Bush's reasons for going to war and, indeed, since I believe he and his administration used deceit (in the form of fearmongering) in making his case to go to war, it follows that I am aggravated by the museum looting because it is my belief this war shouldn't have happened in the first place, hence, there never should have been an opportunity for looting.




------------------------------------
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/15/sprj.irq.museum.looting/index.html

U.S.: We didn't anticipate looting

Tuesday, April 15, 2003 Posted: 11:59 AM EDT (1559 GMT)



DOHA, Qatar (CNN) -- Senior U.S. military officials have admitted Iraqi museums were plundered during a "void in security" and that they failed to anticipate Iraq's cultural riches would be looted by its own people.

Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks said Tuesday that forces entering Baghdad were involved in "very intense combat," and in removing the regime and conducting military operations, a "vacuum" was created.

"I don't think anyone anticipated that the riches of Iraq would be looted by the Iraqi people. And indeed it happened in some places" including the National Museum of Iraq in Baghdad, he told reporters at U.S. Central Command in Doha, Qatar.

He said that while "it may be after the fact" it remained important to restore institutions and retrieve as many items as possible.

*snip*

 

[verte76]

I agree, Pub Crawler. For me it's not some sort of vendetta or whatever against the Bush Administration or the U.S. It's just a policy disagreement. We may have won the war from a military standpoint, but we haven't from a political standpoint. Sure, Saddam is gone. That doesn't mean the Iraqis have a democratic state. They haven't had elections. It's hard for me to see how you're going to have real democracy without elections. I think the Iraqi people might want a Moslem cleric for a leader. I was afraid things like the anti-U.S. demonstration were going to happen. Both Shi'ite and Sunni Moslems were in the demonstration. On a happier note about 20 artifacts were returned to the National Museum. Moslem clerics are encouraging looters to return anything they might have stolen to the museum. I think the looters were allowed to return the objects without any questions. Who knows, the Moslems clerics may be just what the doctor ordered. If they elect one of these President or whatever inaugurate him dammit!

 

[Mrs. Edge]

Hello everyone....

Yesterday, when I made my post, I was in a hurry to get out the door (yes, diamond, as a matter of fact I WAS on my way to a dance recital!), and that, combined with my emotional upset at this entire topic, led me to not write as calmly or as much as I would have liked.

And I'm still upset, but I just wanted to clarify my view.....which is very much like verte, pub crawler and fizzing's views, so I won't elaborate too much except to say:

I have always had mixed views on this war. On the one hand, I think getting rid of Saddam is great, yet I also think that could have been accomplished without going to war at all, thus avoiding this entire mess with the looting. Maybe a war was necessary, but I think it went ahead too early, and I'd still like to see where the hell these famous WMDs are, which are supposed to be the reason this war was started in the first place (they have been conveniently "spirited away" to Syria now). But that's another topic entirely.

That said, YES I am glad that it has gone quickly and with a minimum of loss of human life, all things considered. OK? Here I am, admitting to that. But I should hope so considering this was a preemptive war, and with all the fancy equipment the US has, I would have been surprised and appalled if it had gone any differently. But yes, again, I concede it has gone pretty smoothly...

And I am not criticizing the US army per se for the looters. There are destrictive, ignorant, mob mentality idiots everywhere. And if these people got clobbered by soldiers who were protecting the museum I would totally approve of that, contrary to what some people have said in this thread.

I just agree, that whether these were professionals, or rabble looters, there should have been some contingency planning. Maybe a special police force, or even civilians if not the army then.

Dreadsox, people lose their lives to protect things all the time. Police guard jewelry stores for that matter, and get shot by robbers. This is part of the risk of the job. I would think that guarding the museum would be a less risky job than being engaged in combat anyway...but I admit I don't know enough about this stuff to comment with any authority.

It was just the arrogance of your tone that upset me....that these artifacts, so immeasurably important to the history and heritage of the Iraqi people (It's their oil so everyone keeps saying, well it's also their artifacts, as well as the world's) aren't even worth "one scratch" or "one drop" of American blood.

I DO happen to think that these artifacts (which have been around a lot longer than the oil and should be around for thousands of years to come), will provide Iraq with a source of income in tourism as well as with the pride of their own heritage and that they ARE worth protecting. Of course I wouldn't want anyone to die saving them. But a scratch? I should hope so!

I work in the arts, and am constantly bombarded with these messages that arts and culture are "frills" and that the only thing that matters in life is hospitals and education. Yes, those things are important, but arts and culture are what we are all about...are what make life worth living and separates us from animals. They are expressions of our human spirit and should be protected.

Obviously I suck at political discussions, and I think I might join the FYM exodus....


As for YOU diamond, I think YOU are the one who should stay out of political discussions!

 

[Dreadsox]

Dreadsox, people lose their lives to protect things all the time. Police guard jewelry stores for that matter, and get shot by robbers. This is part of the risk of the job. I would think that guarding the museum would be a less risky job than being engaged in combat anyway...but I admit I don't know enough about this stuff to comment with any authority.

It was just the arrogance of your tone that upset me....that these artifacts, so immeasurably important to the history and heritage of the Iraqi people (It's their oil so everyone keeps saying, well it's also their artifacts, as well as the world's) aren't even worth "one scratch" or "one drop" of American blood.

I expressed my opinion. You implied that I was saying an American life is worth more than someone elses. Never in my statement did I say that. You respond that my words are "arrogant".

Fine...I am arrogant now....Oh wait, you said tone.....I get it...as long as we do not call me arrogant, it's ok?

I stand by my statement. I made it clear I too am saddened by the loss of the artifacts. I also made it clear that in a WAR there are other things going on that you and I are not privy to. It is easy to criticize when we are not there wearing the uniform, going through what the soldiers over there are going through. I would love to see any of you say to a soldier that their life should be put at risk to protect a piece of cuneoform.

Never mind that, if one of our soldiers lost and arm, a leg, or their life, I would really love to see how people here would have explained that the Museum of Natural History was cruicial to the success of the mission. Never mind knocking on a parents door to say that their child had died for the good of the museum of natural history.

My opinion is different than yours on this, yes. Having worn the uniform, and trained with people who have sacraficed for their country. If this makes me arrogant so be it.

Obviously I suck at political discussions, and I think I might join the FYM exodus....

That would be sad to see you go.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

I work in the arts, and am constantly bombarded with these messages that arts and culture are "frills" and that the only thing that matters in life is hospitals and education. Yes, those things are important, but arts and culture are what we are all about...are what make life worth living and separates us from animals. They are expressions of our human spirit and should be protected.

I agree with pretty much your whole post, but especially this part. I study an arts/social science subject at college and I'm forever hearing people make comments like "well, it's sciences that really matter" or "people studying pharmacology/engineering/other science-y subject could do something wonderful in their career" - it's like arts subjects are totally worthless. Well, while I recognise that science and medicine etc are important, I think learning about history, or literature is important to - as you said, arts and culture are what humans are all about.

Anyway, I liked your post, and I also hope you won't leave FYM - it'd be sad if all these great posters really do leave.

 

[Dreadsox]

Last Update: 19/04/2003 21:54

Jordanian customs seize dozens of works stolen from Iraq

By News Agencies



AMMAN - Jordanian customs officials have seized 42 paintings believed to have been looted from Iraq's national museum, government officials said Saturday.

The paintings were taken earlier in the week at al-Karameh border post from unidentified journalists entering Jordan from Iraq and were sent to the main Customs Department in Amman, said the officials, well-informed on the confiscated items.

The paintings were being verified for authenticity but that preliminary checks led to them to believe the material had been looted from Iraq, the officials said on condition of anonymity. They declined to provide other details.

Officials at the Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities, usually responsible for investigating such matters, were not immediately available for comment.

Ad-Dustour, Jordan's second-largest daily newspaper, broke the news Saturday in a short article quoting Mahmoud Qteishat, the director general of the Jordanian Customs Department.

Qteishat reportedly said after border customs discovered the paintings, he instructed his officers to "take all necessary measures to confiscate any stolen items from the Iraqi national museum and library" - which were targeted by looters following the collapse of Saddam Hussein's regime last week.

Al-Karameh border post has been Iraq's lifeline since sweeping United Nations sanctions were imposed on Iraq in the wake of its 1990 invasion of Kuwait. The desert outpost was used for shipments of food, medicine and other humanitarian supplies to Iraq and for passengers embarking on a 12-hour overland trip to the Iraqi capital.

Al-Karameh is 420 kilometers (260 miles) northeast of the Jordanian capital Amman.

 

[verte76]

And I am not criticizing the US army per se for the looters. There are destrictive, ignorant, mob mentality idiots everywhere. And if these people got clobbered by soldiers who were protecting the museum I would totally approve of that, contrary to what some people have said in this thread.

I just agree, that whether these were professionals, or rabble looters, there should have been some contingency planning. Maybe a special police force, or even civilians if not the army then.
<snip>

I DO happen to think that these artifacts (which have been around a lot longer than the oil and should be around for thousands of years to come), will provide Iraq with a source of income in tourism as well as with the pride of their own heritage and that they ARE worth protecting. Of course I wouldn't want anyone to die saving them. But a scratch? I should hope so!

I work in the arts, and am constantly bombarded with these messages that arts and culture are "frills" and that the only thing that matters in life is hospitals and education. Yes, those things are important, but arts and culture are what we are all about...are what make life worth living and separates us from animals. They are expressions of our human spirit and should be protected.

I feel the same. We had jokes in school that our history degrees were about as "useful" as, well, nothing. My sisters joked that their BFA degrees (in sculpture and dance) weren't worth a . But we didn't really feel this way. We felt like there was some use for them that didn't translate into dollar signs or corporate perks. These antiquities absolutely translated into economic something in Baghdad because they used to attract alot of tourists. Furthermore the whole episode was really bad politically, because this sort of thing is not the way to win the political war. We may have won the military war; we have yet to win the political war. There was an anti-U.S. demonstration in Baghdad yesterday, attended by both Shi'ite and Sunni Moslems. The demonstrators were demanding an Islamic state. I'm not surprised. Winning the political war is all about emotions, not logic. That's what makes the damn things so hard to win. I'm afraid we've flubbed it politically. That's *really* bad news for the U.S. It's because Iraqi culture took a kick in the . Those antiquities were raison d'etre for Iraq, and now they're gone. It's painful as heck for me to imagine these weren't worth protecting. Ouch. Bush's own cultural advisers didn't agree with this. They resigned in protest. I think they did the right thing. I would have resigned too. I wish to heck this hadn't happened. It's a disaster, both culturally and politically.

 

[Scarletwine]

Fine...I am arrogant now....Oh wait, you said tone.....I get it...as long as we do not call me arrogant, it's ok?

I have to agree with Mrs. Edge it is your tone. I wouldn't sat arrogant but extremely defensive. I have also replied to threads in a strident voice, sometimes without enough thought. Maybe you can't accept that mistakes happen.

Now I will admit that the war caused less civilian casualties than I thought (Bravo USA). However I wish they would admit that mistakes do happen like the market in Bagdad and as I read more report on the lack of forensic investigation at that restaurant, I'm starting to think it was really a big booboo. Also being against being there at this time it is hard to cheer the home team. And I don't think they thought everything out properly. Maybe this was due to Rumsfeld having too much input into the military execution, after all he doesn't have the true experience. I think he really thought they would be cheering immediatlely (and that lasted what 2 days).

I stand by my statement. I made it clear I too am saddened by the loss of the artifacts. ... I would love to see any of you say to a soldier that their life should be put at risk to protect a piece of cuneoform.

Again I disagree. As Mrs. Edge said Policemen are injured all the time to protect things, even paper (aka money).

Never mind that, if one of our soldiers lost and arm, a leg, or their life, I would really love to see how people here would have explained that the Museum of Natural History was cruicial to the success of the mission. Never mind knocking on a parents door to say that their child had died for the good of the museum of natural history.

Yet I have read you and others say that Iraqi civilians deaths are the necessary evil/means to the end - meaning Sadaam. So yes you are implying that US soldiers lives mean more.

And this is my bow out to war.

"War is over we don't need your help, America is making war on itself"

P.S. CBC did a great report last week on the probable US companies to get contracts. Yesterday the top of their list "Bechtel" received the first contract awarded. They have ties to the Bush Admin.

 

[verte76]

I don't like this "spoils" game either Scarletwine. It's disgusting, all of these people gathered around trying to make $$ from Iraq. Well this country doesn't belong to them. It belongs to the Iraqis. Why can't we let them choose who they are going to do business with? Do they really want a big shot U.S. company in there calling the shots? I doubt it. Even one of my Republican Senators is a little concerned about this as well. In all fairness it's not just the U.S. who's gathered around to try to make $$ from Iraq. That's why France and Germany are trying to fix their relationship with the U.S. If they're going to give the spoils to the countries who sent troops, why aren't any of the companies Polish? Poland sent troops. This doesn't seem fair.

 

[Dreadsox]

I have to agree with Mrs. Edge it is your tone. I wouldn't sat arrogant but extremely defensive. I have also replied to threads in a strident voice, sometimes without enough thought. Maybe you can't accept that mistakes happen.

Interesting, so is it because you disagree with me that I sound defensive? When I have responded quickly in the past I have come back and responded with clarifications. Please note, that I waited days before responding to this thread. I actually spent quite a bit of time putting thought into what I had to say. It was neither defensive, nor was it arrogant. It was indeed my opinion. I made no mistake in my post.

Now I will admit that the war caused less civilian casualties than I thought (Bravo USA). However I wish they would admit that mistakes do happen like the market in Bagdad and as I read more report on the lack of forensic investigation at that restaurant, I'm starting to think it was really a big booboo. Also being against being there at this time it is hard to cheer the home team. And I don't think they thought everything out properly. Maybe this was due to Rumsfeld having too much input into the military execution, after all he doesn't have the true experience. I think he really thought they would be cheering immediatlely (and that lasted what 2 days).

Interesting, I think I have listened to General Brooks almost every morning since the war started. He has made it very clear that we have done everything to try and prevent civilian casualties. Never did he disrespect those people who died by calling it a "BOO BOO". Nor did he call it a "Boo Boo" which also would trivialize the fact for the soldier who has to live with those casualties for the rest of their lives. Sure, sarcasm, I recognize it, and I find it inappropriate.

AS to the ability to plan for everything, I think they were completely caught off guard as to the speed at which things collapsed. They were not prepared for it in my opinion either.

Again I disagree. As Mrs. Edge said Policemen are injured all the time to protect things, even paper (aka money).

Interesting, but not all soldiers are policemen. AS a matter of fact, most soldiers are not trained in that job. I fail to see how this argument applies here.

Yet I have read you and others say that Iraqi civilians deaths are the necessary evil/means to the end - meaning Sadaam. So yes you are implying that US soldiers lives mean more.

Nice try. I am sure Mrs. Edge was referring to past debates. Of course I could quote your words in other threads to show that the words demonstrate contempt for the people who wear the uniform, but that would have nothing to do with this thread.

However, in the grand scheme of things on a battlefield, I do believe that everything should be done to prevent the loss of lives. If that means fighting to win, yes, I am for it. As to civilian deaths, please, show me anywhere where I said they are necessary. Show me one quote where I have ever spoken of anything other than that the US is doing everything they can to spare civilian lives?

Twist... twist...twist...

But again, this is not a personal attack, it is you putting words into my mouth. Fine, I mean its not like you called anyone an asshole, just the words they type right? What is the difference?

P.S. CBC did a great report last week on the probable US companies to get contracts. Yesterday the top of their list "Bechtel" received the first contract awarded. They have ties to the Bush Admin.

ANd this has what to do with the thread?