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Old 04-17-2003, 11:31 PM   #31
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How is that a different perspective?
Everyone saying it is terrible.
These places should have been guarded like the oil fields were.

Are you suggesting that Rumsfeld and W were in cahoots with the professional thieves?
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Old 04-18-2003, 01:54 AM   #32
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I wonder if anyone in the Anti-war movement will apreciate the fact that a man that has murdered over 2,000,000 people is out of power. But they were opposed to the very operation that will give Iraqi people the best chance at democracy and a better life that they have ever had. Those facts are quickly swept under the rug, in order to discuss looting in heavily populated centers. A terrible regime has been defeated, but thats not important, the artifacts of Iraq is what matters.

Arianna Huffington: The type of WMD that Iraq has failed to account for is primarily a threat to civilian populations, NOT THE US MILITARY! The US military has gone into Iraq to insure that Iraq is disarmed of such weapons and to prevent the development of nuclear weapons that could threaten the US military as well as everything else.

Arianna Huffington when it comes to international law is obviously not aware of Resolution 678 which gave member states the right to "Use All Means Necessary" to bring about compliance with "all subsequent resolutions"!
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Old 04-18-2003, 02:04 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
.

Are you suggesting that Rumsfeld and W were in cahoots with the professional thieves?
Of course not.
You implied that the US Service were pratically helping a bunch of rag-tag looters carry items out of museums and such.

These werent some neighborhood rag-tag looters but professionals sent from abroad on a mission to loot a country.
Your posts painted the situation a different way.

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Old 04-18-2003, 04:37 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
[B]Those facts are quickly swept under the rug, in order to discuss looting in heavily populated centers. A terrible regime has been defeated, but thats not important, the artifacts of Iraq is what matters.
Is there a contradiction in caring about both those things? One can only be glad Saddam is gone if one also says it doesn't matter that priceless artifacts have been stolen? I think both matter. What concerns me is that the US and UK knew perfectly well this was going to happen and yet did absolutely NOTHING to prevent it. That, in my opinion, is unforgivable.

Quote:
The US military has gone into Iraq to insure that Iraq is disarmed of such weapons and to prevent the development of nuclear weapons that could threaten the US military as well as everything else.


I guess we'll never know if Iraq did have such weapons or not, since the United States has refused to allow UN weapons inspectors to re-enter Iraq.
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Old 04-18-2003, 09:51 AM   #35
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The UN Inspectors became enablers instead of inspectors.
Dont worry we will find the stiff and embarrass them later.

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Old 04-18-2003, 10:11 AM   #36
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BAGHDAD, Iraq (April 17) - The radio call was urgent: bank robbery in progress, gunmen still in the building, immediate backup needed.

Only this is Baghdad, and backup came in five armored vehicles filled with soldiers who have become reluctant policemen in a city wracked with tensions.

Residents are furious that fellow Iraqis loot and rob, angry that U.S. troops rarely assume the role of police and resentful when they do - and all that raged at full boil.

In the end, a potentially disastrous encounter was peacefully defused: No lives lost, one more burst of lawlessness reined in, another lesson in negotiating the troubled city of 5 million.

Still, police duties are something U.S. troops are reluctant to take on. Forces here are trained and armed to kill, and experienced soldiers are wary that good-intentioned efforts to stop civilian looting could lead to violence.

On Thursday, when the soldiers roared up, crowds and chaos clogged the narrow streets around a branch of the al-Rashid Bank.

A dozen special operations troops and scouts struggled to hold back hundreds of angry civilians. The thieves - men and teenagers - hid inside and by the rear door as troops arrived in desert camouflage and flak jackets, assault rifles in hand.

The civilians surged forward; the soldiers pushed back. At one point, soldiers cocked their weapons and charged the civilians, screaming at them when they refused to move.

''This has the potential to be a bad situation,'' was the dry assessment from Army Sgt. Chris Darden, an infantry team leader with A Company, 3rd Battalion, 7th Infantry Regiment.

The standoff ended with only shots fired in the air, and with 12 suspected robbers detained, several of them teenagers. As the Americans brought out the suspects, most of the crowd cheered, chanting, ''Good, good, mister!'' while the parents of the teenagers wept and begged the soldiers to release them.

Still, the two ringleaders escaped, armed with assault rifles and explosives. Millions of dollars in U.S. and Iraqi currency were taken to a military base for safekeeping.

Witnesses gave this account: A group of thieves entered the bank offices and began trying to break into the two main vaults. They blew a hole in the roof of one vault, but too small for an adult - so they began lowering children inside to pass out money in fistfuls.

Word soon hit Baghdad's streets, however, and people poured in, demanding the thieves hand over the money. The crowd, many of whom had accounts at the bank, caught the attention of a special operations patrol.

A Company was called in with their armored vehicles to provide security while the special forces troops blew a larger hole to get the money out. They picked up bricks of consecutively numbered $100 bills, still in their Federal Reserve bundles and each worth $100,000, and filled five burlap sandbags - some $4 million.

The crowds continued to grow and more soldiers were called in. More than 100 infantrymen, accustomed to being shot at and quickly returning fire, were expected to show the utmost restraint.

''These people want the money and they believe it is rightfully their money, but they don't understand that the proper distribution is not first-come, first-served,'' said Army Col. Philip DeCamp, a battalion commander.

Some civilians cheered the soldiers, but others, who blamed the U.S. troops for the looting that has ravaged the city, taunted them.

''So are we still shooting people?'' asked Spc. Michael Tonjes of San Ramone, Calif., before answering the question himself. ''No? So we're peacekeeping.''

Tonjes and some of the older soldiers served with A Company during a rotation through Kosovo, and know about peacekeeping. And they know that's how they will likely spend their last weeks in Iraq.

''This is the most dangerous part,'' Staff Sgt. Thomas Slago of Los Angeles said. ''This is when they start sniping at you. Before, you knew who the enemy was, now it could be anybody.''

Senior soldiers in the company have listened in horror to reports of U.S. troops shooting at civilians elsewhere. They fear their edgy troops could end up in a similar situation because they aren't trained or equipped to be policemen, they are trained and armed to kill.

''Trying to ramp these men down is impossible,'' said 1st Sgt. Cedric Burns of Sylvania, Ga. ''After they've seen all of this combat, they are not ready for peacekeeping. They need to get some troops in here who are trained for this kind of operation and let us go home.''

AP-NY-04-17-03 1727EDT

Copyright 2003 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.BAGHDAD, Iraq (April 17) - The radio call was urgent: bank robbery in progress, gunmen still in the building, immediate backup needed.

Only this is Baghdad, and backup came in five armored vehicles filled with soldiers who have become reluctant policemen in a city wracked with tensions.

Residents are furious that fellow Iraqis loot and rob, angry that U.S. troops rarely assume the role of police and resentful when they do - and all that raged at full boil.

In the end, a potentially disastrous encounter was peacefully defused: No lives lost, one more burst of lawlessness reined in, another lesson in negotiating the troubled city of 5 million.

Still, police duties are something U.S. troops are reluctant to take on. Forces here are trained and armed to kill, and experienced soldiers are wary that good-intentioned efforts to stop civilian looting could lead to violence.

On Thursday, when the soldiers roared up, crowds and chaos clogged the narrow streets around a branch of the al-Rashid Bank.

A dozen special operations troops and scouts struggled to hold back hundreds of angry civilians. The thieves - men and teenagers - hid inside and by the rear door as troops arrived in desert camouflage and flak jackets, assault rifles in hand.

The civilians surged forward; the soldiers pushed back. At one point, soldiers cocked their weapons and charged the civilians, screaming at them when they refused to move.

''This has the potential to be a bad situation,'' was the dry assessment from Army Sgt. Chris Darden, an infantry team leader with A Company, 3rd Battalion, 7th Infantry Regiment.

The standoff ended with only shots fired in the air, and with 12 suspected robbers detained, several of them teenagers. As the Americans brought out the suspects, most of the crowd cheered, chanting, ''Good, good, mister!'' while the parents of the teenagers wept and begged the soldiers to release them.

Still, the two ringleaders escaped, armed with assault rifles and explosives. Millions of dollars in U.S. and Iraqi currency were taken to a military base for safekeeping.

Witnesses gave this account: A group of thieves entered the bank offices and began trying to break into the two main vaults. They blew a hole in the roof of one vault, but too small for an adult - so they began lowering children inside to pass out money in fistfuls.

Word soon hit Baghdad's streets, however, and people poured in, demanding the thieves hand over the money. The crowd, many of whom had accounts at the bank, caught the attention of a special operations patrol.

A Company was called in with their armored vehicles to provide security while the special forces troops blew a larger hole to get the money out. They picked up bricks of consecutively numbered $100 bills, still in their Federal Reserve bundles and each worth $100,000, and filled five burlap sandbags - some $4 million.

The crowds continued to grow and more soldiers were called in. More than 100 infantrymen, accustomed to being shot at and quickly returning fire, were expected to show the utmost restraint.

''These people want the money and they believe it is rightfully their money, but they don't understand that the proper distribution is not first-come, first-served,'' said Army Col. Philip DeCamp, a battalion commander.

Some civilians cheered the soldiers, but others, who blamed the U.S. troops for the looting that has ravaged the city, taunted them.

''So are we still shooting people?'' asked Spc. Michael Tonjes of San Ramone, Calif., before answering the question himself. ''No? So we're peacekeeping.''

Tonjes and some of the older soldiers served with A Company during a rotation through Kosovo, and know about peacekeeping. And they know that's how they will likely spend their last weeks in Iraq.

''This is the most dangerous part,'' Staff Sgt. Thomas Slago of Los Angeles said. ''This is when they start sniping at you. Before, you knew who the enemy was, now it could be anybody.''

Senior soldiers in the company have listened in horror to reports of U.S. troops shooting at civilians elsewhere. They fear their edgy troops could end up in a similar situation because they aren't trained or equipped to be policemen, they are trained and armed to kill.

''Trying to ramp these men down is impossible,'' said 1st Sgt. Cedric Burns of Sylvania, Ga. ''After they've seen all of this combat, they are not ready for peacekeeping. They need to get some troops in here who are trained for this kind of operation and let us go home.''

AP-NY-04-17-03 1727EDT

Copyright 2003 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.
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Old 04-18-2003, 11:32 AM   #37
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I do give a damn that Saddam is no longer in power. That's great. No more dictatorships for Iraq. I also give a damn that the antiquities could have been guarded from the looters, and they weren't. Bush's own cultural advisors resigned in protest. What more needs to be said? This is inexcusable. This is the Screw-Up
From Hell that the planners really couldn't afford to make. That's why I'm upset.
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Old 04-18-2003, 12:13 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
I wonder if anyone in the Anti-war movement will apreciate the fact that a man that has murdered over 2,000,000 people is out of power. But they were opposed to the very operation that will give Iraqi people the best chance at democracy and a better life that they have ever had. Those facts are quickly swept under the rug, in order to discuss looting in heavily populated centers. A terrible regime has been defeated, but thats not important, the artifacts of Iraq is what matters.
sting i've supported this war 100% from the beginning (in case anyone here still didn't know that ) and i've seen no one here putting the artifacts/looting above the lives of our soldiers and freedom/safety of the iraqi people. i obviously agree that this war has been a huge success, and believe that the iraqis will have a better life without saddam in power.

however, this does not mean i will simply ignore aspects of this operation that i find to be rather disgraceful. just because i agree with the war doesn't mean i will blindly support every single decision that is/was made. the artifacts DO matter, and people who think so are not sweeping the rest of the facts under the rug. at least i'm sure not.
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Old 04-18-2003, 12:34 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


Of course not.
You implied that the US Service were pratically helping a bunch of rag-tag looters carry items out of museums and such.


I never implied this.

Quote:
These werent some neighborhood rag-tag looters but professionals sent from abroad on a mission to loot a country.
Your posts painted the situation a different way.

DB9

Does it make any difference if a thief is a professional? or not?

If the sites were guarded like other sites
this would not have happened.
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Old 04-18-2003, 12:38 PM   #40
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verte76
Screaming Flower ,


Don't get it by now.






Either you are with us or with the enemy!
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Old 04-18-2003, 01:33 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Screaming Flower


sting i've supported this war 100% from the beginning (in case anyone here still didn't know that ) and i've seen no one here putting the artifacts/looting above the lives of our soldiers and freedom/safety of the iraqi people. i obviously agree that this war has been a huge success, and believe that the iraqis will have a better life without saddam in power.

however, this does not mean i will simply ignore aspects of this operation that i find to be rather disgraceful. just because i agree with the war doesn't mean i will blindly support every single decision that is/was made. the artifacts DO matter, and people who think so are not sweeping the rest of the facts under the rug. at least i'm sure not.
Right. We don't necessarily want to sweep Saddam under the rug. That's why I didn't take a "knee-jerk" anti-war position. I tried to keep an open mind about the whole thing. It was a complex problem with no simple solution. The idea that we are claiming that the antiquities are more important than soldiers' lives is not true. It's a matter of thinking that the museum and library were just as important as the Ministry of Oil. This is what Bush's own cultural advisers said when they resigned this past week. They said that you guard cultural treasures during a war, particularly a pre-emptive one. They put a guard up at the Ministry of Oil; why not the museum, which is just as important to Iraq's *economy* as anything is; this is what got Baghdad tourists in the past. I don't think some people understand what was lost. This is the equivalent of the rip off of the Declaration of Independence and the trashing of the Lincoln Monument and the Smithsonian Institute. We've lost the oldest legal code on Planet Earth, the text of the oldest myth, that of "Gilgamesh", ancient illuminated Korans, and so on.
I give up. I'm going to check out sexy pix in PLEBA. Screw politics. They're entirely too frustrating for me.
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Old 04-18-2003, 03:26 PM   #42
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so there was a little screw up..
its getting handled now..

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Old 04-18-2003, 03:41 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
so there was a little screw up..
its getting handled now..

db3
AHHHHHHHHHHHH.

"A little screw up"? Let me ask you Diamond, if someone where to go to Washington DC and steal or destroy the contents of the Smithsonian museums, and damage or destroy the Lincoln Memorial, Washington Monument and Capitol Hill - would you say it's just "a little screw up"?

I sure hope not. That's what's happened in Iraq, priceless treasures which are thousands of years old have been lost or destroyed. Items which are irreplaceable and which have tremendous significance in Iraq's history.

You might still think the war was worth it, but please don't pretend that the destruction of the history of the world's first civilisation was just "a little screw up".
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Old 04-18-2003, 04:05 PM   #44
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small potatos
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Old 04-18-2003, 04:09 PM   #45
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Wow, you honestly believe that? The entire contents of the Smithsonian museums, the Washington Monument, Lincoln Memorial and Capitol Hill are "small potatoes"?

Speaking as someone who was lucky enough to spend a week in Washington DC and see all those things, I think they count as a little more than small potatoes.

I'm really shocked by your reply.
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