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Old 04-15-2003, 03:02 PM   #16
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Our cultural heritage is destroyed, why did you do that? why? why?.."

Nabhal Amin, second director or the archaeological national museum in Baghdad. after looters stole and destroyed about 170 000 peaces of their collection.
Quote:
freedom is something messy, free people are free to do mistakes, crimes and other evil things "

Donald Rumsfeld, US-Secretary of Defense, to the same Subject
sorry for retranslating it from german, if somone could post the original Rumsfeld quote? ... i'd be glad to read it.

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Old 04-16-2003, 07:45 PM   #17
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Originally posted by Klaus




sorry for retranslating it from german, if somone could post the original Rumsfeld quote? ... i'd be glad to read it.

Klaus, that basically is what Rumsfeld said. It was complete, total rationalization. I'm mad as hell.
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Old 04-16-2003, 09:08 PM   #18
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?

I find this thread ludicrous!

Do you realize that there were 55 people killed, and millions and millions in damage and looting after the Rodney King beating in LA!

That's half of what we lost in Iraq!

Come on people!

Mark
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Old 04-16-2003, 09:21 PM   #19
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Old 04-16-2003, 11:47 PM   #20
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The Anti-War crowd has to find something to pick on after their predictions for the war were proved totally wrong. Nation Building is a difficult process and I don't recall hearing that this was supposed to be easy from either side.

Oh and as to the war, it was a major undertaking to defeat a military force of 430,000 Iraqi's and cause so little damage to the country. Many people will never understand or appreciate that amazing and incredible job US and British soldiers have done.

Most US troops are not stationed in or guarding oil wells. The oil wells are out in the desert away from population centers. Their not irrelevent. They represent the wealth that is going to build more hospitals and help provide Iraqi's with the best standard of living they have ever experienced.
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Old 04-16-2003, 11:56 PM   #21
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What utter nonsense. In fact, the speedy fall of Baghdad proves the antiwar movement was dead right. The whole pretext for our unilateral charge into Iraq was that the American people were in imminent danger from Hussein and his mighty war machine. Well, it turns out that, far from being on the verge of destroying Western civilization, Hussein and his 21st century Nazis couldn't even muster a halfhearted defense of their own capital.

The hawks' cakewalk disproves their own dire warnings. They can't have it both ways.

Victory Aside, the Invasion Was a Bad Idea




By Arianna Huffington

April 16, 2003

Arianna Huffington writes a syndicated column.

The Bible tells us that pride goeth before the fall. In Iraq, it cameth right after it.

From the moment that statue of Saddam Hussein hit the ground, the mood around the Rumsfeld campfire has been all high-fives, I-told-you-sos and endless prattling about how the speedy fall of Baghdad is proof that those who opposed the invasion of Iraq were dead wrong.

What utter nonsense. In fact, the speedy fall of Baghdad proves the antiwar movement was dead right. The whole pretext for our unilateral charge into Iraq was that the American people were in imminent danger from Hussein and his mighty war machine. Well, it turns out that, far from being on the verge of destroying Western civilization, Hussein and his 21st century Nazis couldn't even muster a halfhearted defense of their own capital.

The hawks' cakewalk disproves their own dire warnings. They can't have it both ways.

The invasion has proved wildly successful in one other regard: It has unified most of the world -- especially the Arab world -- against us. Back in 1991, more than half a dozen Arab nations were part of our Desert Storm coalition. Operation Iraqi Freedom's "coalition of the willing" had zero. Not even the polygamous potentates of Kuwait -- whose butts we saved last time out and who were most threatened by whatever threat Iraq still presented -- would join us. And substituting Bulgaria and Tonga for Egypt and Oman is just not going to cut it when it comes to winning hearts and minds on the Arab street.

Almost everything about the invasion -- from the go-it-alone buildup to the mayhem the fall of Hussein has unleashed -- has played right into the hands of those intent on demonizing and destroying our country.

The antiwar movement did not oppose the war out of fear that the United States was going to lose. It was the Bush administration's pathological and frantic obsession with an immediate, damn-the-consequences invasion that fueled the protests.

And please don't point to jubilant Iraqis dancing in the streets to validate the case for "preemptive liberation." You'd be doing the Baghdad Bugaloo too if the murderous tyrant who'd been eating off golden plates while your family starved finally got what was coming to him. It in no way proves that running roughshod over international law and pouring Iraqi oil -- now brought to you by the good folks at Halliburton -- onto the flames of anti-American hatred was a good idea. It wasn't before the war, and it isn't now.

The unintended consequences have barely begun to unfold. And the idea that our slam dunk of Hussein actually proves the White House was right is particularly dangerous because it encourages the Wolfowitzes and the Perles and the Cheneys to argue that we should be invading Syria or Iran or North Korea or Cuba as soon as we catch our breath.

It's important to remember that the Arab world has seen a very different war than we have. They are seeing babies with limbs blown off, children wailing beside their dead mothers, Arab journalists killed by American tanks and bombers, mosques being obliterated, holy men killed and dragged through the streets. They are seeing American forces leaving behind a wake of destruction, looting, hunger, humiliation and chaos.

Ari Fleischer is also sending out the wrong message when he claims that the administration can't do anything to keep Christian missionaries -- including those who have described the Islamic prophet Muhammad as a "demon-possessed pedophile" -- from going on a holy crusade to Baghdad. If there is one thing that could bring Sunnis and Shiites together, it's the common hatred of evangelical zealots who denigrate their prophet.

And it doesn't help to have the American media referring to Jay Garner, the retired general overseeing the rebuilding of Iraq, as "viceroy." If you open your dictionary, you'll see that term means "one who rules in the name of a sovereign, with regal authority; who serves as the king's substitute." It reeks of colonial imperialism. Why not just call him Head Bwana? Or Garner of Arabia?

The role that shame and humiliation have played in shaping world history is considerable, but it is something the Bush team seems utterly clueless about. Which is why the antiwar movement must be stalwart in its refusal to be silenced or browbeaten by the gloating "I told you so" chorus on the right. On the contrary, it needs to make sure that the doctrine of preemptive invasion is forever buried in the sands of Iraq.
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Old 04-17-2003, 12:45 AM   #22
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Normal

Quote:
Originally posted by deep








By Arianna Huffington



Arianna Huffington writes a syndicated column.

.
as an author,
this lady is a joke...
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Old 04-17-2003, 04:14 AM   #23
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MadelynIris:

You can't call the destrucion of the cultural goods in $, they were unique, and some Islamic people might have given their life to protect the oldest Koran scripts.

I think we rushed too fast in this war, did ignore the side effects and gave diplomacy no chance to save us from some ugly "side effects" of this war.

I'm unsure how long we remember this war here, after a possible war against Syria and Iran we might not (or less) be interested at all in it, like today in the problems of Afghanistan.
But I'm sure we can read about the destruction of this old coran verses in 500 years and people will remember that even 100 regime-changes later.

I was allways convinced that the US would win this war quickly, i'm glad the US military did its best to prevent civil people by using so called smart bombs, everyone who wasn't blind knew that there would be no zero colateral damage. But even the best military can't fix what politics above scres up.

Klaus
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Old 04-17-2003, 07:56 AM   #24
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MadelynIris, I'm not sure why you posted what you did. Surely you can see that things that happen in this world are on a scale, and really anything can be compared in those terms to another, but each is still just as significant?
I dont really see the point in approaching something to give examples of what is worse. This IS terrible.
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Old 04-17-2003, 01:00 PM   #25
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You're right, Angela. No one can take away the fact that this is a disaster by comparing it to other situations. What got ripped off in Baghdad? Stuff related to the invention in Mesopotamia of the way we tell time. Every time you look at a watch or clock, you're looking at something that was invented in Mesopotamia. We're using another Mesopotamian invention, writing, to communicate. They had the first alphabet. They also had the first calendar. These things related to the fact that Iraq, or Mesopotamia, is the cradle of *our* civilization. It's not someone else's heritage. It's yours and mine. This is a monstrous crime against civilization. Things related to these inventions are gone forever. A crime is a crime. This sucks big time.
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Old 04-17-2003, 05:11 PM   #26
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US Culture Advisers Resign Over Iraq Museum Looting
22 minutes ago Add Top Stories - Reuters to My Yahoo!


By Niala Boodhoo

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Two cultural advisers to the Bush administration have resigned in protest over the failure of U.S. forces to prevent the wholesale looting of priceless treasures from Baghdad's antiquities museum. Martin Sullivan, who chaired the President's Advisory Committee on Cultural Property for eight years, and panel member Gary Vikan said they resigned because the U.S. military had had advance warning of the danger to Iraq (news - web sites)'s historical treasures.


"We certainly know the value of oil but we certainly don't know the value of historical artifacts," Vikan, director of the Walters Art Gallery in Baltimore, told Reuters on Thursday.


At the start of the U.S.-led campaign against Iraq, military forces quickly secured valuable oil fields.


Baghdad's museums, galleries and libraries are empty shells, destroyed in a wave of looting that erupted as U.S.-led forces ended Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s rule last week, although antiquities experts have said they were given assurances months ago from U.S. military planners that Iraq's historic artifacts and sites would be protected by occupying forces.


"It didn't have to happen," Sullivan told Reuters. "In a pre-emptive war that's the kind of thing you should have planned for." Sullivan sent his letter of resignation earlier this week.


The Iraqi National Museum held rare artifacts documenting the development of mankind in ancient Mesopotamia, one of the world's earliest civilizations. Among the museum collection were more than 80,000 cuneiform tablets, some of which had yet to be translated.


Professional art thieves may have been behind some of the looting, said leading archeologists gathered in Paris on Thursday to seek ways to rescue Iraq's cultural heritage.


Among the priceless treasures missing are the 5,000-year-old Vase of Uruk and the Harp of Ur. The bronze Statue of Basitki from the Akkadian kingdom is also gone, somehow hauled out of the museum despite its huge weight.


The White House repeated on Thursday that the looting was unfortunate but the U.S. military had worked hard to preserve the infrastructure of Iraq.


"It is unfortunate that there was looting and damage done to the museum and we have offered rewards, as Secretary Rumsfeld has said, for individuals who may have taken items from the museum to bring those back," White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan said in Crawford, Texas, where President Bush (news - web sites) is spending a long Easter break.


FBI (news - web sites) Director Robert Mueller added that the bureau was sending agents to Iraq to assist with criminal investigations and had issued Interpol alerts to all member nations regarding the potential sale of stolen artifacts.


"We recognize the importance of these treasures to the Iraqi people and as well to the world as a whole," Mueller said. "And we are firmly committed to doing whatever we can in order to secure the return of these treasures to the people of Iraq."


The president appoints the 11-member advisory committee, which works through the State Department to advise the executive office on the 1970 UNESCO (news - web sites) Convention on international protection of cultural objects.
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Old 04-17-2003, 05:17 PM   #27
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Originally posted by Screaming Flower
#"We certainly know the value of oil but we certainly don't know the value of historical artifacts," Vikan, director of the Walters Art Gallery in Baltimore, told Reuters on Thursday.

At the start of the U.S.-led campaign against Iraq, military forces quickly secured valuable oil fields.

Baghdad's museums, galleries and libraries are empty shells, destroyed in a wave of looting that erupted as U.S.-led forces ended Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s rule last week, although antiquities experts have said they were given assurances months ago from U.S. military planners that Iraq's historic artifacts and sites would be protected by occupying forces.

"It didn't have to happen," Sullivan told Reuters. "In a pre-emptive war that's the kind of thing you should have planned for." Sullivan sent his letter of resignation earlier this week.

I think he makes some excellent points. All of this could have been prevented, which is why it's so heartbreaking to see it happening when it could have been so easily prevented. Seriously...the military planners could get all ready to secure oil fields but they couldn't spare a few people to protect museums full of priceless items? It just shows where people's priorities lie.
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Old 04-17-2003, 07:03 PM   #28
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Well, the resignations say it all. This was the Screw-Up From Hell. Grrrrrrrr.
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Old 04-17-2003, 10:39 PM   #29
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US experts resign over Iraq looting

Three White House cultural advisers have resigned in protest at the failure of US forces to prevent the looting of Iraq's national museum - home to artefacts dating back 10,000 years.
Priceless statues, manuscripts and other treasures were taken away in a wave of lawlessness following the collapse of the government of Saddam Hussein in Baghdad last week.

"It didn't have to happen", Martin Sullivan - who chaired the President's Advisory Committee on Cultural Property for eight years - told Reuters news agency.


The tragedy was not prevented, due to our nation's inaction
Martin Sullivan
committee chairman
"In a pre-emptive war that's the kind of thing you should have planned for," he said.



His disquiet was echoed by Richard S Lanier and Gary Vikan of the 11-member committee composed of experts and professionals from the art world.

According to the Associated Press, Mr Lanier - director of a New York foundation - attacked "the administration's total lack of sensitivity and forethought regarding the Iraq invasion and loss of cultural treasures".


PRESUMED MISSING

80,000 cuneiform tablets with world's earliest writing

Bronze figure of Akkadian king - 4,500 years old

Silver harp from ancient city of Ur - 4,000 years old

Three-foot carved Sumerian vase - 5,200 years old

Headless statue of Sumerian king Entemena - 4,600 years old

Carved sacred cup - 4,600 years old


And Mr Vikan - director of Baltimore's Walters Art Museum - criticised the American failure to curb "what is now an open floodgate", the agency said.

As well as the national museum in Baghdad, a museum in Mosul was looted and the capital's Islamic Library, which housed ancient manuscripts including one of the oldest surviving copies of the Koran, was ravaged by fire.

The UN's cultural agency Unesco has called the loss and destruction already suffered as "a disaster".

The US has pledged to recover and repair the items looted.

Secretary of State Colin Powell said the Baghdad museum was "one of the great museums in the world" and that the US would take a leading role in restoring it.
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Old 04-17-2003, 11:01 PM   #30
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My Free Thinking Friends,

Heres another perspective...

Iraqi Museum Lootings Were Organized, Experts Say







Thursday, April 17, 2003

PARIS Professional thieves, likely organized outside Iraq, pillaged the nation's priceless ancient history collections by using the cover of widespread looting -- and vault keys -- to make off with irreplaceable items, art experts and historians said Thursday.





The bandits were so efficient at emptying Iraqi libraries and museums that reports have already surfaced of artifacts appearing on the black market, some experts said. Certain thieves apparently knew exactly what they wanted from the irreplaceable Babylonian, Sumerian and Assyrian collections, and exactly where to find them.

"It looks as if part of the theft was a very, very deliberate, planned action," said McGuire Gibson, president of the American Association for Research in Baghdad. "It really looks like a very professional job."

Gibson was among 30 art experts and cultural historians assembled by the U.N. Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization to assess the damage to Iraq's heritage in the aftermath of the U.S.-led invasion.

In Washington, the FBI announced Thursday it had sent agents to Iraq to assist in recovering stolen antiquities.

"We are firmly committed to doing whatever we can to secure these treasures to the people of Iraq," FBI Director Robert Mueller told a news conference at the Justice Department.

But it remained unclear exactly what was gone and what survived the looting and thievery. With many museum records now in ashes and access to Iraq still cut off, it could take weeks or months to answer those questions.

Establishing a database was a key to finding out what had survived, and tracking down what was stolen, the experts said.

Neil MacGregor, director of the British Museum, said some of the greatest treasures -- including gold jewelry of the Assyrian queens -- were placed in the vaults of the national bank after the 1991 Gulf War. There was no information on whether those items remained inside.

The National Museum, one of the Middle East's most important archaeological repositories, was ransacked. But it was unknown whether one of its greatest treasures, tablets containing Hammurabi's Code, one of the earliest codes of law, were there when the looting began.

The pillaging has ravaged the irreplaceable Babylonian, Sumerian and Assyrian collections that chronicled ancient civilization in Mesopotamia -- the home of modern-day Iraq. Although much of the looting was haphazard, experts said some of it was highly organized.

"They were able to obtain keys from somewhere for the vaults and were able to take out the very important, the very best material," Gibson said. "I have a suspicion it was organized outside the country. In fact, I'm pretty sure it was."

Many at the meeting feared the stolen artifacts have been absorbed into highly organized trafficking rings that ferry the goods through a series of middlemen to collectors in Europe, the United States and Japan.

The FBI was cooperating with the international law enforcement organization Interpol in issuing alerts to all member nations to try to track any sales of the artifacts "on both the open and black markets," Muller said.

Ahead of the war, Iraq's antiquities' authorities gathered artifacts from around the country and moved them to Baghdad's National Museum, assuming the museum would not be bombed, Gibson said.

"They did not count on the museum being looted," he said.

The network of antiquities dealing in Iraq is well-developed, escalating far beyond the ability of authorities to stop it following the 1991 Gulf War. Thousands of antiquities had disappeared from the country even before the current war.

The trafficking feeds off of Iraq's poverty-stricken people, said Salma El Radi, an Iraqi archaeologist. "If you need to feed your family and the only way to do it is by looting a site, you're going to loot a site," El Radi said.

Much anger has been directed at U.S. troops, who stood by and watched as Iraq's treasures were carted off.

Koichiro Matsuura, director-general of Paris-based UNESCO, called Thursday for a U.N. resolution imposing a temporary embargo on trade in Iraqi antiquities. Such a resolution would also call for the return of such items to Iraq, he said.

"To preserve the Iraqi cultural heritage is, in a word, to enable Iraq to successfully make its transition to a new, free and prosperous society," the UNESCO chief said

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