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Old 06-02-2005, 04:38 AM   #46
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Maybe freedom is the chaos.

Unbridled freedom is total anarchy.

Total control is totalitarianism.

There is a balance between freedom and control, liberty and security; whether we like it or not.

I find the question "What country grants the most freedom to Citizens" itself to be flawed, I do not think that government should be controlling the rights of it's citzens, the citizens should be controlling their rights and what powers the government has to keep that in check.

I have been reading quite a bit of Hayek recently, makes a very persuasive case on the nature of economic control and political freedoms.
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Old 06-02-2005, 06:03 AM   #47
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This is interesting. I'm not sure there's an absolute answer to this question. It depends on what you mean by "freedom". People have mentioned the Scandinavian countries. They're very free socially, but the tax rates could be referred to as repressive. I don't think it's the United States, my country, mainly now because I think this anti-gay marriage trend is repressive, and I don't like it.
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Old 06-02-2005, 06:22 AM   #48
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A_Wanderer, can I ask why you think our gun laws are tight? My understanding of them is that they are very restrictive, but sensible. There's a big difference between someone who is a perfectly honest, respectable citizen, free of any criminal or 'not right in the head' background owning A firearm for whatever reason, and the 'right' to stockpile a mini arsenal of high powered military grade weapons while awaiting the coming armageddon or that day that will surely come when we have to take down the government or whatever other loony reasons you hear coming out of the US.

As far as I've heard (and to be honest I don't pay that much attention because I'll never, ever, ever in a million years own one), there are a lot of checks and balances in place, but if you pass them and you have the patience to fill out a lot of forms, you can legally own a reasonable weapon pretty easily here - just not some fucking anti-aircraft missile launcher or whatever you think you need to show off to the boys down at the local loony militia.
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Old 06-02-2005, 06:40 AM   #49
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They're very free socially, but the tax rates could be referred to as repressive.
The taxation in Scandinavia includes free post secondary education for its citizens at home and abroad as well as a national health care system. Theres always two sides to the coin.
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Old 06-02-2005, 06:55 AM   #50
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Not really, you must demonstrate genuine need to own a weapon, self-defence is not considered to be one. I consider the government only giving licences to those with a 'genuine need' with strict registration and tracking is not close to a free system where citizens may posess weapons but carry a responsibility not to abuse that right, this has worked effectively in a few countries, the socio-economic factors are the big factor in the level of violence one finds.

In any case, I have no personal interest in owning a gun in Australia or any safe country (even ones where people own guns), I bear in mind that there can be situations where having a gun is a neccessity for safety and survival such as sledding around the arctic circle where there were Polar Bears and the like.
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Old 06-02-2005, 06:58 AM   #51
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The taxation in Scandinavia includes free post secondary education for its citizens at home and abroad as well as a national health care system. Theres always two sides to the coin.
Why should citizens who don't take up post-secondary education have to pay for those that do? what is wrong with a user-pays system.

Same goes with national health care, why should the young and healthy be forced to carry the burden of the old, sick and infirm?

It may well be the other side of the coin, but it has citizens that are dependent on government and that furthur limits the freedom of the individual.
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Old 06-02-2005, 07:02 AM   #52
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Ssssshhh.... you'll stop the flow of hot Scandinavian girls to Australian Universities....
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Old 06-02-2005, 07:06 AM   #53
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Why should citizens who don't take up post-secondary education have to pay for those that do? what is wrong with a user-pays system.
Because then you're stuck with a mortgage-sized student loan debt after you graduate, with many of the lower classes being unable to afford post-secondary education at all. Equalizing the playing field would be the easiest way to promote higher education amongst the lower classes.

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Same goes with national health care, why should the young and healthy be forced to carry the burden of the old, sick and infirm?
What a silly comment. The young get sick too. And, in America, unless you have full-time employment, you don't get health care. Period. And with the supply-siders screaming "economy shift" to freelance/contract labor, now you've got even more people without health care.

"Tax freedom" is mostly a joke perpetrated by rich people who don't want to pay taxes. Someone's got to pay for their "war on terrorism." Of course, if the Middle East had more higher education and employment for the lower classes, the whole thing might never have existed.

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Old 06-02-2005, 07:12 AM   #54
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I can't be expected to think through solid arguments for extremes that I don't agree with.
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Old 06-02-2005, 07:15 AM   #55
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Originally posted by melon


And with the supply-siders screaming "economy shift" to freelance/contract labor, now you've got even more people without health care.

Not to mention the thousands, maybe millions, who work two or three part-time jobs instead of one full-time job, and consequently also are unable to receive employer-paid healthcare but make "too much money" to be on government medical assistance.
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Old 06-02-2005, 07:17 AM   #56
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Same goes with national health care, why should the young and healthy be forced to carry the burden of the old, sick and infirm?
Because the young and healthy will one day be the old, sick and infirm?
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Old 06-02-2005, 07:17 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I can't be expected to think through solid arguments for extremes that I don't agree with.
Extremes? I have enough student-loan debt to last me 30 years. That's what a "user-pays" system does.

And no national health care? America already does that and I've been trying for months to get full-time employment to no avail. I'm now stuck in a very dissatisfying part-time job. Here's hoping I never get sick, because that's one of the top reasons that Americans declare bankruptcy: they get sick and end up with five-to-six figure medical bills.

You may not agree with those extremes, but they do exist.

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Old 06-02-2005, 07:18 AM   #58
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Two Words ~ Soylent Green
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Old 06-02-2005, 07:18 AM   #59
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Not to mention the thousands, maybe millions, who work two or three part-time jobs instead of one full-time job, and consequently also are unable to receive employer-paid healthcare but make "too much money" to be on government medical assistance.
Exactly.

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Old 06-02-2005, 07:20 AM   #60
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Two Words ~ Soylent Green
Care to clarify?

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