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Old 06-02-2005, 02:43 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
No, the KKK as an organisation infringes on the rights of other people and hurts them, that should not be 100% legal.

Freedom of speech likewise should not extend to inciting violence.
Agreed.
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Old 06-02-2005, 02:48 AM   #32
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Maybe Holland. The Scandinavian countries are nice, but we also know the phenomenon of many Scandinavians coming to Germany for a drinking holiday, because in Scandinavia it is restricted for everyone uner ...21? or 22.. dunno exactly? Also, in Scandinavia the shops close very early. if you´re in a little town there in winter, it gets dark at five, the shops close, the bars a little later, and there is absolutely nothing to do. This has not so much to do with personal political freedom or freedom of speech , but anyway, it might make you feel trapped.

I think Holland is a good guess. Another possibility is Switzerland, with a little less personal freedom than Holland, but huge political freedom.
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Old 06-02-2005, 02:55 AM   #33
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And gun ownership is another consideration, and a significant one at that. Australia would not even rank because of our ridiculously tight rules and regulations over owning firearms.

Drug use is another one, Europe does fare better on that count than the US.

Taxation is an example where most European countries have a lot less freedom.

Choices regarding healthcare, a privatised healthcare system is arguably more free than a government one system, and will often deliver a better quality of care (to those that can pay).

The legal system of a country is a significant one, most European nations have at times and reserve the right too do things that are very harsh. The USA Patriot Act is not in itself any worse than what existed prior and what was enacted after September 11 in Europe, there are some areas where the Patriot Act is harsher but overall it was curbed in areas by civil-libertarians and libertarians in the political process, the same fear and distrust of centralised authority is not as common in Europe and that can be a very dangerous thing. Europe may be socially more free but politically and economically more restricted than the US.

I do not think that either there is a single country on Earth where the ideal system can be found. The closest we can come is probably some of those Islands where rich businessmen live to avoid high taxes.
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Old 06-02-2005, 03:01 AM   #34
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Resists.....urge....to.....bite.....on......the.....gun.....topic......
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Old 06-02-2005, 03:08 AM   #35
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Fuck that. How are our rules on guns ridiculously tight? The only people who have any kind of need for a gun, are farmers and the armed forces. End of story.
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Old 06-02-2005, 03:16 AM   #36
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Guns are a right, they come with significant responsibilities.

From a strictly constitutional point of view I think that the United States embodies the highest ideals of freedom.
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Old 06-02-2005, 03:43 AM   #37
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Oh, get off the grass! A right? What right do YOU have A_W? What elevates you or any schmoe, to the right to bear arms which kill and maim? The very banning of them makes us more free. I was born with this right to the life I live, and I quite frankly do not want some hillbilly freak who thinks he has some constitutional bloody right to take that from me. My life, and those of every citizen in this country is a hell of a lot more important than your right to own a firearm.
That's rights.
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Old 06-02-2005, 03:51 AM   #38
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Banning firearms does not make you more free, it may make you safer but it does not make you more free.

This is an example where freedom and liberty are traded for security, one that an awful lot of people seem to support.
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Old 06-02-2005, 03:59 AM   #39
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But the real question is which nationalities citizens have the greatest freedom to swear at each other and not take offence? Australia or Spain?
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Old 06-02-2005, 04:02 AM   #40
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For an example of a civil society where guns are widely owned look at Switzerland, population of like 6 million with at least 2 million publicly owned firearms and a very low crime rate. An economically well off population without significant poverty and gang violence adds to this.

Your contention that allowing citizens to own guns will foster a violent society is, in my opinion, misplaced. Entrenched poverty and welfare dependence and marginalisation of sections of your population will however breed criminality and violence.
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Old 06-02-2005, 04:05 AM   #41
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This smacks of right wing hypocrisy, you know. Godamnit, I've mentioned the right... And I've blasphemed
Funny how security though, is somehow more important when it comes to something utterly ridiculous like internet monitoring or library usage. Dont you find that funny? I do. See, I see the 'right' get up in arms (oh christ, now we have bad puns) over people trying to take their guns off them because they have the right (so they feel) to own them, and it's freedom and liberty and more other bogus bullshitting about, but they'll happily let the government pry into their personal lives with say the afore mentioned internet or library examples.

Your loss of liberty means I am free to walk down the road knowing that the odds of getting shot because I wont hand over my wallet have been lessened. So, thanks. I'll take that.
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Old 06-02-2005, 04:12 AM   #42
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Your playing it personal, it doesn't help your arguments. Your characterisation of the right is very simplified, I mean who introduced some of the tightest gun controls? it was the freaking Howard Government, are you going to tell me that they are not right wing.

In a purely hypothetical thought scenario a society that allows gun ownership is more free than a society that forbids it.

A society that monitors peoples internet and library use is less free than one that doesn't.

For crying out loud I am not sitting here demanding that we give every man, woman and child a gun in the name of freeing up society. I am using the right of law abiding citizens own a licenced firearm as one factor in a measure of individual liberty within different countries.
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Old 06-02-2005, 04:14 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
...

Your contention that allowing citizens to own guns will foster a violent society is, in my opinion, misplaced. Entrenched poverty and welfare dependence and marginalisation of sections of your population will however breed criminality and violence.
Whose contention? If you are referring to my hillbilly comment, then I suggest you at least clarify before making assumptions, if you do not follow my point...ironically, as hillbilly is most commonly attributed to the very group you then described in this quoted reply.
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Old 06-02-2005, 04:17 AM   #44
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I was thinking more along the lines of city poverty, which seems to be where you get the most violent crime in any society regardless of gun ownership.
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Old 06-02-2005, 04:29 AM   #45
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That's true, regarding city crime. There's actually been a lot of studies done on many issues in country vs city, with poverty, crime, drug use, suicide and so on. But that's a whole other thread.
My above posts, in an aside, weren't intended to be a personal attack. I could do a lot better than calling you a right winger lol. Speaking of which, I happened to vote Howard last election. Not because I like or dislike the man, but because of a local issue...Long story, anyway lol. And yeah, his government is right, no doubt.

In completely theoretical or hypothetical terms, the more a society is allowed to do, the technically freer they are. But along with that is more chaos. Before too long, the chaos overtakes and freedom is long lost.
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