What about us atheists? Where do we stand?

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I didn't come in here to evangelize. I'm smart enough to understand that it won't help people who've already rejected God. I came in to make a relevant point. People always say to me "I have no interest in God even if He's there". My point is that if my God does exist you'll eventually have to face him whether you're interested or not.
 
And my point is, I *know* he doesn't exist, its not like im a fair weather non believer, I just know he doesn't exist myself, so i'm not worried about facing him at the end of my life. And i haven't REJECTED him, because there is no him.

Look i dont want to argue with you, i said at the start that I have never had a proper debate/discussion with a religious person, because for some reason they cannot fathom that i honestly 100% do not believe in anything about their religion and that i haven't "rejected it" or been "poisened by it" or turned my back on it, I don't ACCEPT it at the start, so i feel no reason to even discuss it?

Why can you not understand this?
 
trevster2k said:

I have noticed the people who have popped one to contribute to the thread and answer Amy's question about athiesm, have done so almost sheepishly. I agree with yolland about allowing everyone to post in threads, but sometimes the atmosphere can become uncomfortable for people to share their ideas as not everyone here wants to participate in a debate. Some merely wish to share an opinion and I'm certain FYM has lost many excellent contributions from other members.

I keep planning to post in here -- on the original topic, I don't feel like just sniping -- but other things have kept getting in the way. With any luck this thread will still be open when I am finally able to type out a thoughtful answer (which should be in a day or so).
 
I know that the more we learn the less religious belief offers answers about where we came from, I also know that I find the very concept of God repellent to the extreme.
 
Shart1790 how gutted are you gonna feel when you die and nothing is there ? or instantly reincarnated as something like a woodlice ?
 
dazzlingamy said:
And my point is, I *know* he doesn't exist, its not like im a fair weather non believer, I just know he doesn't exist myself, so i'm not worried about facing him at the end of my life. And i haven't REJECTED him, because there is no him.


See, you and I are at opposite ends of the God-spectrum, but what I think is MORE important is the simple fact that we have a common ground because we are both stubbornly committed to our beliefs, whatever those may be. I have way more respect for someone that has this devotion, even if it's not the same as mine, than I do for a lot of my "Christian" friends who can't even say why they believe what they believe.

I think it's really impossible to discuss religion, because in order to have a real dialogue, you've got to put yourself in someone else's shoes. When it comes to religion/faith, no one wants to do that. I can't fathom not believing in something greater than myself, just as you can't fathom the existence of a God. Fair enough. As long as we are both committed to what we believe and can appreciate each other for that, then this is really any issue of respect, not religion.

Amy, none of your posts have been offensive to me as a Christian because you are respectful. It's just the basics of having a decent conversation. You're consistently defending yourself without offending others by saying "I believe/I don't believe" while others, who ARE offensive, are saying "You are this/You aren't this-------because you believe in God." Pointing fingers, in any context, is offensive.
 
Re: Re: Re: What about us atheists? Where do we stand?

dazzlingamy said:


Firstly, I care because I think its a pretty pathetic waste of time to fight any war, but to have a war filled with religious undertones, to have the Christinaity vs Muslim or Judaism vs Muslim continually going on, it just to me, so UTTERLY POINTLESS as both sides believe in something that is a figment of their imagination, and instead of playing that 'im right you're wrong you're going to hell blah blah' bullshit, actually work out why the hell we keep fighting for? Ok the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is obviously to do mostly with the taking of Palestian lands, but why is Lebanon involed? Why do they care so much about the Israelis? It wasn't their land they were "given". So why do they care? Because of their religion? I can see that more believiably then any other answer.

Right, I get that, where you're coming from that is. But why bother? I mean to you, we're nothing more than talking plants. Our thoughts are nothing more than chemical responses to external inputs. We love so we can procreate, we fear so we can stay alive, etc. If it's all just a bunch of chemical reactions, what's with all the caring? You mention your boyfriend in a later post. I assume you love him or at least care a great deal about him. But with no divine spark, that love or caring you feel is nothing more than natures impulse to procreate. You love to travel, again a chemical reaction of released endorphins when encountering new stimuli. Seems rather animalistic and trivial to me.

dazzlingamy said:
And of COURSE i care about people's lives. I feel like I live for my LIFE. I don't think about the afterlife, I don't think i'm going to heaven or hell, so you know what, my life, my lifespan is now! So why would I want people to die at 20 or 50 years when I believe is this is all you get. Have fun while the ride lasts, and hope that it lasts a long time. I think live you're life the best you know how, have fun, take time to enjoy the simple things of life, work on yourself rather then trying to convert everyone else to your views and you've lived a good life.

I do all that. And I'm not trying to convert you. If fact, I really could care less about it. You're a U2 fan, and U2 are all christians (I think; maybe not Adam) but they're not trying to convert you either. Why do you feel so threatened? Do you feel threatened every time someone presents an idea or thought to you that you can relate to? Even if they're being forceful about it, so what? I think everyone of us have come across those wacko zealots who are trying to convert someone to one cause or another. It can be Christianity or Amway. They're annoying. Get over it.

dazzlingamy said:
And lastly, yes it may be slightly self centred to be worried about travelling, but there are no selfless people in the world, and im not going to pretend i'm on of them. Obviously i'm more worried about the lives of innocent people caught up in these conflicts, but I LOVE and LIVE to travel, and it disappoints me that there are places in MY WORLD that I can't visit.

No it's not slightly, it's totally self centered. Your whole basis for this is you. Your life, your time, your world, your plans, your beliefs. It's all you talk about. My personal opinion on your beliefs is that you dare not believe in God because if you did then you wouldn't have the justification to do whatever the heck you feel like doing.

And one last thing. This figment of imagination thing. I assume since you don't believe in God, you are a believer in Science. Great so am I. But you do know that the most basic building blocks of all science fact starts with still unproven science theory right? The big bang, unproven. Evolution, unproven. So who exactly is believing in figments of the imagination?

PS, I do believe in the big bang and evolution - I just think they had a little help. :sexywink:
 
Snowlock, you said you're not trying to convert her, but that's kind what it sounds like. :huh:

I think the point of this thread was to see a discussion of atheism, not the atheists come out of the woodwork and then the Christians try to tell them they are wrong. Christianity has so many denominations, beliefs, and styles to choose from; I'd imagine atheism can be just as diverse and I'm interested in reading more about it. It seems like a lot of people have this assuption that the atheists worldview is basically the lack of a worldview, and I don't think that's fair. If atheism can be as much of a "faith" as Christianity, I'd like to know how believing in atheism affects the daily decisions atheists make.

I think the thread sort of got derailed.
 
Deleted...forgot that I was suggested not to post on this thread anymore.
 
LivLuvAndBootlegMusic said:
Snowlock, you said you're not trying to convert her, but that's kind what it sounds like. :huh:

Converting and questioning are not the same thing. I haven't suggested she go to church or reevalute her life. I'm asking if you don't believe, then why bother caring? It's a fair question.
 
Snowlock said:


Converting and questioning are not the same thing. I haven't suggested she go to church or reevalute her life. I'm asking if you don't believe, then why bother caring? It's a fair question.

Caring about what? Health? Other people? To me, those are matters of common sense. You basically deduced that she's a selfish person and only cares for her own animal instincts.
 
LivLuvAndBootlegMusic said:


Caring about what? Health? Other people? To me, those are matters of common sense. You basically deduced that she's a selfish person and only cares for her own animal instincts.

Thank you livluv.

I don't understand why people think that if some one is atheist that they don't care about anything. :huh:
 
I have never considered being an athiest as being a "faith". It is just I don't have a belief. Just because I don't believe in deities means I believe science is all supreme. I accept the fact there are tons of things which humans don't understand. People have been curious since time began and are still learning about our planet and its' processes. Just because we don't know the origin of the universe or why serial killers do their acts of horror doesn't prove the existence of a supreme being. It just means we haven't figured it out yet.

There are thousands of things which people didn't understand in the past which we have come to understand. Bacteria, the movement of the planets, gravity, the effect of the moon on the tides, the New World, vaccines against disease, the lifeforms which survive a underwater hydrothermal vents, viagra and so on. Was lack of knowledge of these things credited to a supreme being at some point, probably, but man's thirst for how or why things are found answers for some and not for others. So I don't "believe" in science either anymore then I "believe" in Allah, Mohammed or Jesus.

I will add another post regarding daily decisionmaking, gotta step out for a while.:wink:
 
WildHoneyAlways said:


Thank you livluv.

I don't understand why people think that if some one is atheist that they don't care about anything. :huh:

Because some people feel that you can't have morals or empathy for your fellow man if you don't have a faith in a supreme being. This is totally incorrect.
 
LivLuvAndBootlegMusic said:


Caring about what? Health? Other people? To me, those are matters of common sense. You basically deduced that she's a selfish person and only cares for her own animal instincts.

They're not matters of common sense in the context here. Atheists look at things empiracly. The basis for not believing is because there's no evidence of it. It's all imagination, remember? So I'm looking at the evidence; throwing out emotion and trying to see things from her point of view. And it seems such a cold point of view and I'm curious about it so I'm carrying it to it's conclusion. If we're nothing more than a part of nature, then lets talk about things from a biological perspective.

I believe another athiest poster said earlier that religion was devised for no other reason than to keep the population in line. And that's logical. But the implication is that we needed those rules to prevent total anarchy and the destruction of civilization. So saying that without rules we're governed soley by animalistic needs. Alright, I'm running with that too.

And I didn't say she's a self centered person. I said her beliefs are self centered. Because I don't truely believe she has such a harsh worldview and if she doesn't then there's a contradiction there that I'm wanting to see.
 
trevster2k said:


Because some people feel that you can't have morals or empathy for your fellow man if you don't have a faith in a supreme being. This is totally incorrect.

I agree. They are definitely misinformed.

As far as daily decision-making, I'm not sure what you mean. Why do I pick up a dozen donuts on Fridays for my co-workers? Why do I go to the gym? Why am I boycotting P.F. Changs? :wink:
 
WildHoneyAlways said:


As far as daily decision-making, I'm not sure what you mean. Why do I pick up a dozen donuts on Fridays for my co-workers? Why do I go to the gym? Why am I boycotting P.F. Changs? :wink:

Nah, more like - Where do I go to school? Where do I work? How do I raise my kids? Should I recycle more? Can I sit back and think it's OK my friends are behaving this way? What career is right for me? - the big things we all have on our minds every day.
 
Snowlock said:


They're not matters of common sense in the context here. Atheists look at things empiracly. The basis for not believing is because there's no evidence of it. It's all imagination, remember? So I'm looking at the evidence; throwing out emotion and trying to see things from her point of view. And it seems such a cold point of view and I'm curious about it so I'm carrying it to it's conclusion.

And this is where you've gone wrong. What does emotion have to do with religion? Humans are not the only animal to show emotion.
 
maycocksean said:
Wow, Amy, I just wanted to say I'm sorry your thread got hijacked like it did. You asked for atheists to share their views and they've just about been drowned out by the believers taking offense. That must be frustrating.



i've been enjoying reading this thread, mostly because i'm going to bookmark it and return to it whenever anyone whines about FYM being filled with intolerant liberals or that there's some sort of horrible left-wing bias and conservatives get ganged-up upon.

anyway ... back to reading.
 
Everyone experiences emotion, there's no question about that.

I just wonder why atheists claim their emotions matter. I'm not saying they don't, but I believe in God.
 
I found this in the book I mentioned earlier, Can Be Good Without God. The author, Robert Buckman, doesn't use the term athiest, he uses the term non-theist which I like better actually. I refer to the book because he is more eloquent than I in expressing these thoughts.

Non-Theist Core Principles

1. The human species has evolved as - and remains as - part of nature.

Humankind is no more that - and no less than - a part of nature: like all living organisms, humans have a life that is limited in duration and scope.

2. Human consiciousness is a function of the activity of the human brain.

Being aware of the rest of nature - and of the universe - and of its own place within it is a characteristic of humankind's mental functioning that is perhaps unique and certainly wonderful. Nevertheless, consiciousness is another aspect of natural life, and not a force or essence instilled into humans by an outside deity or intelligence. An individual's consiciousness ends when that person dies.

3. Human beings require (to some extent) a system of belief in order to function.

So far, most belief systems have revolved around the idea of an external god or gods,; however, the same need to believe can be equally served by alternative systems of philosophy. The Humanists' system is founded on using the scientific method to establish the factual basis of any data, and on basing human behaviour on reasonable conduct and democratic principles.

4. Humanists believe that in all its forms the supernatural is a myth.

Believing in an external God is a uniquely human activity. While is has undoubtly produced some advantages for humankind, it has also been a source of considerable divisiveness and strife. Humanists are people who do not believe in the idea of a Divine Architect or Regulator who has constructed the universe and controls human affairs, and they reject religions based on dogma, revelation or mysticism.

5. The human species is capable of achieving a great deal using its resources of collaberation and creativity. The results of these endeavours often benefit our species and planet, but we are also capable of using the same abilities in acts of destruction and cruelty.

The human species has always carried out acts of great benefit, but also acts of great destruction. Humanists recognize that the human species is innately capable of both of these - and that the potential for destruction is part of the human repertoire. Acts of mass aggression, killing and war are a result of tendencies built into human behaviour and are not simply the result fo a few abnormal and aberrant individuals. As a species we can clearly do many good things, but we need to be aware that we are capable of the opposite

6. Humanists do not believe that the rules of human conduct have been set or preordained by any deity or external intelligence.

Clearly, no single religion has been able to show that it has exclusive access to the secret of peaceful and cooperative co-existence of life on earth. There is much merit in the idea that there is no such thing as an extrinsic set of rules imposed on us from outside humankind that should be governing all of human behaviour.

7. Individuals who are aware of the consequences of their actions on other individuals, on the community and on the species are likely to behave in a more considerate, more reasonable and more ethical way.

Striving for the greater good and worth of the human species is not an exclusive property of theism. It is a human activity that can exist just as well without a belief in a deity as it can with it. Non-theists can be - and often are - ethical and moral people.

8. Humanists believe that equality of opportunity is a fundamental principle on which humankind can base its behaviour.

Equality of opportunity should be supported for people, no matter what their nation, ethnic background, gender, sexual orientation or any aspect of their beliefs.

9. Life on earth is relatively fragile and requires care and attention to continue.

There is nothing guaranteeing our species against all causes of potential extinction. Our own activities may threaten our existence, and we need to be aware of this in organizing and regulating what we need to do.

10. Humankind's destiny is not predetermined - much of it lies in our own control.

There is hope. But it's up to us to look after each other and ourselves.

Addtional guideline, he refers to as a suggestion: if you have children, do your best to like them

Much of mankind's woes seem to stem from children abused and disliked by their parents or caregivers as they grew up. The world will not be perfect if every child is not only loved but also liked, but it will probably be a lot more stable.

Me here, all humanists are athiest or non-theists but not all athiests are humanists just to be clear.
 
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shart1780 said:
Everyone experiences emotion, there's no question about that.

I just wonder why atheists claim their emotions matter. I'm not saying they don't, but I believe in God.

Unbelievable.

Why wouldn't they matter? You still haven't answered what God has to do with it?
 
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