What about us atheists? Where do we stand?

[80sU2isBest]

It's scarce surpise that dictators can craft cults of personality when there is such an intrinsic mechanism in the human mind to surrender individuality to the mob.

I'm really as individual as a person can come, A_Wanderer. I have my own distinct personality, I am not a "herd mentality" type of guy. You can ask anyone who's known me for even 6 months, and he/she will tell you that I am not one to join a movement or even hang around with too many people at a time. I have accurately been described as a rebel. This is true in my life outside the organized church and within the organized church. I have taken stances against things that chucrhes have done, often at the risk of looking like I'm "not a team player".

I have not "surrendered to the mob".

What I have done is accepted God's free gift of grace, because I was tired of beating myself silly trying to stand on my own.

 

[VintagePunk]

I'm not going to address why people hate Christians, because we've all been through that a million times. But i will address why I think people don't want to follow Christ and hate and ridicule him and his message. Here are some reasons I've thought of.

(1)This is an "independent" world. From day one, most of us are taught to stand our own, make our own way in the world, to not rely on anyone but ourselves. Society reinforces that at every turn. The Gospel is the total opposite; it's about dependence - on God. Christ wants people to rely on him. Christ says "you CAN'T do it on your own...you need me", but we have a hard time accepting that.

(2)No one wants to give up control. People want to be in control of their own lives, do exactly what they want to do. Christ's way is to let God take control. No one wants to submit to someone else's control.

(3)The world says "what's right for you may not be right for some" (sorry, I just had to quote the lyrics from the Different Strokes theme song). To the world, there is no absolute right and wrong; what's right or wrong is completely subjective. No one wants to be told he's wrong. People don't want to think of themselves as sinners. That is not how the Gospel is at all. The heart of the Gospel is Christ's love as evidenced by his scarificial death on the cross, specifically for those who are lost in sin - that is, all of us. And according to the Gospel, you cannot benefit form this sacrifice until you come to a point where you realize you are a sinner and that you can't earn your way into a relationship with God.


Everyone knows that it does bother me when people ridicule Christ and his message. However, at this point, it should not surprise me. Christ himself said that that the world would hate him, his message and his followers.

Why do you assume that people hate Christians and ridicule/hate Jesus? That seems to me to be a pretty defensive position to hold. For the record, I neither hate Christians, nor do I hate or ridicule Jesus. From historical records documenting his life, he seems to be an admirable individual.

I do agree with much of your assessment as to why people choose not to embrace religion. Unlike you though (I'm guessing), I perceive those reasons to be positives. What I do disagree with is your claim that athiests believe right and wrong is subjective. I don't believe that that's the case for most athiests, and certainly not for myself. As well, most athiests do not go about their lives in isolation, depending on no one. They form social, familial and intimate connections with others.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Why do you assume that people hate Christians and ridicule/hate Jesus? That seems to me to be a pretty defensive position to hold. For the record, I neither hate Christians, nor do I hate or ridicule Jesus. From historical records documenting his life, he seems to be an admirable individual.

I do agree with much of your assessment as to why people choose not to embrace religion. Unlike you though (I'm guessing), I perceive those reasons to be positives. What I do disagree with is your claim that athiests believe right and wrong is subjective. I don't believe that that's the case for most athiests, and certainly not for myself. As well, most athiests do not go about their lives in isolation, depending on no one. They form social, familial and intimate connections with others.

I was simply answering a question. Read the post before mine. Irvine asked what it is about Christ that is so off-puuting that it creates such a strong reaction. I answered him.

Seems to me that you are the one being defensive at this point. I never said that you hate Christians or Christ. I also never said that Athiests don't believe in right or wrong. Maybe you need to reread the post. I didn't pinpoit any certain group of people, I said "people".

People do hate and ridicule Christ and Christians. You see it on TV, at the movies, in all walks of life. I've seen it on this forum; heck I've even seen it in this thread.

 

[VintagePunk]

I was simply answering a question. Read the post before mine. Irvine asked what it is about Christ that is so off-puuting that it creates such a strong reaction. I answered him.

Seems to me that you are the one being defensive at this point. I never said that you hate Christians or Christ. I also never said that Athiests don't believe in right or wrong. Maybe you need to reread the post. I didn't pinpoit any certain group of people, I said "people".

People do hate and ridicule Christ and Christians. You see it on TV, at the movies, in all walks of life. I've seen it on this forum; heck I've even seen it in this thread.

And I'm a person, so I responded.

 

[80sU2isBest]

And I'm a person, so I responded.

That's okay by me that you responded, but I don't know you nor do I know anything about you, and you have never given me any reason to accuse you of hating Christians or not believing in absolute right and wrong, so I wouldn't do it.

 

[VintagePunk]

That's okay by me that you responded, but I don't know you nor do I know anything about you, and you have never given me any reason to accuse you of hating Christians or not believing in absolute right and wrong, so I wouldn't do it.

Fair enough. I just thought it logical that since the context of the discussion is non-believers, that they were the 'people' implicitly being referred to.

 

[trevster2k]

Hmmm, so I guess posting some Stephen Colbert, Jon Stewart, Kevin Smith and Family Guy would be upsetting some people in this thread.

Actually, most satire based on Jesus is because of the different church structures themselves, not Jesus himself. Jesus's teachings were all positive and somehow a lot of what he talked about got umm, miscontrued by some.

 

[BVS]

People do hate and ridicule Christ and Christians. You see it on TV, at the movies, in all walks of life. I've seen it on this forum; heck I've even seen it in this thread.

Do they really hate Christ?

Or do they ridicule the Jerry Falwells, Pat Robertsons, Westboro Baptist Churches of the world?

 

[trevster2k]

I like the way you think, BVS!

 

[BVS]

I like the way you think, BVS!

That's mutual!!!

 

[dazzlingamy]

I don't hate christians, and a certainly have no ridiculed them at all (im sure you'll disagree 80s for some reason!) but i certainly don't have christ because I. DON'T. BELIEVE. HE. WAS. THE. SON. OF. GOD. Furthermore, I don't believe there IS A GOD. So what annoys me is when religious people think that we are attacking them by not being a believer. That suddenly your faith is in question because WE don't accept it. This world is 'each to their own' but with my original post and subsequent posts, I feel on the whole, that if you are not religious you are seen to be 'wrong' or that something has made you this way and all i need to do it accpet Christ into my heart and it will make me life better. That irks me something firece.

No one wants to be told he's wrong. People don't want to think of themselves as sinners. That is not how the Gospel is at all. The heart of the Gospel is Christ's love as evidenced by his scarificial death on the cross, specifically for those who are lost in sin - that is, all of us. And according to the Gospel, you cannot benefit form this sacrifice until you come to a point where you realize you are a sinner and that you can't earn your way into a relationship with God.

Well maybe the Gospel isn't supposed to be percieved that way, but the way Christinaity (and other religions) are set up it is telling EVERYONE who doesn't follow their principles that WE'RE in the wrong, and if we don't convert we're going to 'hell'. I think this is what a lot of people are annoyed with. The thought of me spending eternity in hell doesn't worry me as 1. I don't believe in it to start with and 2. if its real, all my favourite people will be down there with me, while the GWB will be up there

Also, straying from my point, I don't think i like being in a church where its most trusted advisors can abused people and then confess their sins and God forgives them. I wouldnt respect a God who did that - just my opinion.

 

[Liesje]

Do they really hate Christ?

Or do they ridicule the Jerry Falwells, Pat Robertsons, Westboro Baptist Churches of the world?

Bingo!

 

[maycocksean]

Wow, Amy, I just wanted to say I'm sorry your thread got hijacked like it did. You asked for atheists to share their views and they've just about been drowned out by the believers taking offense. That must be frustrating.

I know I've been frustrated when, say, Christians are debating on a forum on some Biblical topic and an atheist drops in to mock and ridicule. It's like "you don't even believe in this stuff! Why are you here?" Likewise, it seems to me that those of us who are Christians should have allowed the atheists to respond to your questions without interjecting and taking the discussion off track.

 

[trevster2k]

Amy, you brought up an interesting point about God. Yeah, in the Catholic church, you can pretty much do whatever you want, show up Sunday, confess to the priest, be given penance and off you go to start a fresh week, guilt free. Wow, that's awesome. What a great system.

Another that I find troubling is if God is so loving and forgiving, how come if you don't accept Him, that's it, you're out of the club and it's fire and brimstone for you in eternity in the pits of hell. Sounds like a dictatorship to me, it's my way or the highway. Billions of people don't believe in God, (the Christian God), are they all going to hell or what about the millions of people who never heard of God in the past?

Christianity is not the only religion with the problems of being misinterpreted by people who in turn screw with the minds of others. Islam has the same problem along with Judaism and Hinduism. For some reason, the divine teachings aren't clear and succinct enough to have one version.

Yeah, yeah, I'm criticizing Christianity. It's my opinion, I'm allowed to share my views, no one has to like them. Hey, perhaps someone should start a thread on denominations that all the Christians are affiliated with so we can hear different doctrines from each Church. I think that would be an interesting discussion.

 

[trevster2k]

Wow, Amy, I just wanted to say I'm sorry your thread got hijacked like it did. You asked for atheists to share their views and they've just about been drowned out by the believers taking offense. That must be frustrating.

I know I've been frustrated when, say, Christians are debating on a forum on some Biblical topic and an atheist drops in to mock and ridicule. It's like "you don't even believe in this stuff! Why are you here?" Likewise, it seems to me that those of us who are Christians should have allowed the atheists to respond to your questions without interjecting and taking the discussion off track.

Good points, maycocksean. I generally stay away from the religious discussions about God since I have nothing to contribute since as you say, I don't even believe in the stuff. But here in this thread, I am with my peeps.

 

[VintagePunk]

Amy, you brought up an interesting point about God. Yeah, in the Catholic church, you can pretty much do whatever you want, show up Sunday, confess to the priest, be given penance and off you go to start a fresh week, guilt free. Wow, that's awesome. What a great system.

Another that I find troubling is if God is so loving and forgiving, how come if you don't accept Him, that's it, you're out of the club and it's fire and brimstone for you in eternity in the pits of hell. Sounds like a dictatorship to me, it's my way or the highway. Billions of people don't believe in God, (the Christian God), are they all going to hell or what about the millions of people who never heard of God in the past?

Christianity is not the only religion with the problems of being misinterpreted by people who in turn screw with the minds of others. Islam has the same problem along with Judaism and Hinduism. For some reason, the divine teachings aren't clear and succinct enough to have one version.

These are things I've pondered many, many times. Especially the second paragraph. The conclusion I've come to regarding that is that I'm living my life to the best of my ability, and if I'm wrong in my views and there is a God, then hopefully that will be good enough. If it's not, than it's probably a God that I don't have much interest in, anyway.

I was also thinking of the wide variation of beliefs held by Christians of various denominations. If they can't get it together and agree on one version of the truth, and one set of rules to live by, how do they expect to convince others of the validity of their message? As is, it merely becomes their version of the truth - one of many.

 

[maycocksean]

Hey, perhaps someone should start a thread on denominations that all the Christians are affiliated with so we can hear different doctrines from each Church. I think that would be an interesting discussion.

Ooh, ooh. Start it, start it! I'd find that interesting as well. There's a lot I've wanted to respond to in this thread, but I just really think that this isn't the place to do it since a lot of it was way off topic. I'm gonna start a thread on conversions.

 

[trevster2k]

TThe conclusion I've come to regarding that is that I'm living my life to the best of my ability, and if I'm wrong in my views and there is a God, then hopefully that will be good enough. If it's not, than it's probably a God that I don't have much interest in, anyway.

I agree with that statement too, I try to be a good person, not steal, cheat with my friend's wives, not kill anyone, you know the stuff you aren't supposed to do anyway. I figure I live a more moral life than some Christians but I don't believe, oh well, better to rule in hell then serve in heaven.

Vintage, you should look into finding a book called Can We Be Good without God by Robert Buckman . It came out a few years back. Robert Buckman is world renowned Canadian oncologist is a steadfast humanist. It is an interesting read about how to answer the criticism that if you don't believe in anything, how can you feel anything and live a good life.

 

[shart1780]

I think what you should be more concerned about is whether or not the God you're talking about has any interest in you.

 

[trevster2k]

I think what you should be more concerned about is whether or not the God you're talking about has any interest in you.

Thanks for addressing our questions and reaffirming my disinterest in participating in religion.

 

[dazzlingamy]

^ LOL

I think you need to know shart1780, i don't want your God anywhere near me.

And i'm more concerned about what i'm going to have for tea tonight then if you're God is looking after me.

Bah with your msgs. Go start another thread, you obviously can't accept that to me, you're talking bollocks with your god this, Christinaity that. I'm not interested.

Also agree VP. If I live my life the best that I can, i'm happy. I don't need the protection of a piece of fluff in the wind to validate my life.

 

[shart1780]

I think you misunderstood what I'm saying. My point is that if there is a God he's there regardless of if you're interested or not. Of course my God is interested in you.

 

[maycocksean]

I think you misunderstood what I'm saying. My point is that if there is a God he's there regardless of if you're interested or not. Of course my God is interested in you.

Shart, maybe you should leave it alone.

 

[shart1780]

People here really do go in a tizzy over this stuff... not fun.

 

[dazzlingamy]

I'm not in a tizzy, i just don't like being preached at that all. And you said it yourself 'if there is a God' which to me theres not, so end of discussion about whether he does or doesn't care.

 

[shart1780]

You're basically on a God bashing spree and I come in and make a post stating that God cares about you, and somehow that angers you even more...

I pity the evangelist that comes to your door.

 

[trevster2k]

Right now, there is a thread about Alternative Christian Worship Services. Aside from a couple of good-hearted jokes, does anyone notice that none of us agnostic/athiests are over there condemning or defending the existance or non-existance of God and that it is a waste of time? We have no agenda. Please let the atheists sit alone in our dark morbid existance on our one lonely thread.

Thanks for your attention. Now don't click on this link, this is for athiests/agnostics only or people with a sense of humour

http://thatvideosite.com/view/856.html

 

[yolland]

I will say one more thing about the topic I had said I will forget, because I just realized something. The topic clearly says "us Athiests". This thread was not intended for me, and so I will concede that it wasn't for me, and I should have stayed out.

There's no such thing as a thread with a "Keep Out" sign, and any thread concerning atheism, regardless of what POV it starts out from, is pretty much guaranteed to provoke clashes; that's just the nature of the topic. While I appreciate maycocksean's generous point, I'm not sure the analogy to atheists trolling a Bible discussion thread fully holds--unless, of course, said Bible thread consists extensively of posts explicitly criticizing atheism or atheists. (In which case, interjections in defense of atheism would be completely appropriate.)

However, 80s, by my count, your posts do literally comprise one-forth of the thread at this point, and--given the context--I think that's a bit too much. Please give it a rest for awhile. Thanks.

shart...I think maybe it's time for you to give it a break too.

 

[dazzlingamy]

LMAO!!! I love that bit!!! My boyf and I always go 'hey hey lookie this' 'da na na na na na na naaaa naaaa' and do it to each other. I almost crashed our car once from laughing so hard LOL

Side note: I haven't God bashed once n this whole thread. You can't bash something that doesn't exist!

 

[trevster2k]

You're basically on a God bashing spree and I come in and make a post stating that God cares about you, and somehow that angers you even more...

I pity the evangelist that comes to your door.

You still don't get it. I understand that it is your calling as a Christian to spread the word of God and save people. But this is the exact thing that many of us have talked about which has driven us away from religion. The more you tell us how much God loves us, the more we are biting our tongues and not saying something rude.

If you told me you love the colour blue but have no interest in red and I kept offering you red things over and over and over after you kept refusing it and after communicating your distaste for red things, would you politely take the red item anyway or eventually ram it into one of my orifices? That's my point.

I have noticed the people who have popped one to contribute to the thread and answer Amy's question about athiesm, have done so almost sheepishly. I agree with yolland about allowing everyone to post in threads, but sometimes the atmosphere can become uncomfortable for people to share their ideas as not everyone here wants to participate in a debate. Some merely wish to share an opinion and I'm certain FYM has lost many excellent contributions from other members.