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Old 07-16-2006, 05:24 PM   #61
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Originally posted by Maoilbheannacht


Once again, I never said anyone had to leave or get out of anything because of their beliefs. It should be noted that Adam obviously does not have a problem with his bands strong faith and spiritual beliefs and was even quoted on the ELEVATION tour saying that "God was walking through the room" on many nights.
Relax, I was just being silly.
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Old 07-16-2006, 05:25 PM   #62
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Originally posted by dazzlingamy Its all so easy to say 'oh god did it' but, it opens up a lot more questions then answering anything.
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That's not how I see it at all. I would have a harder time believing that it all came from nothing than to believe that it was created by someone who has no beginning or end. Either stance involves a degree of faith, to be honest.
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Old 07-16-2006, 05:30 PM   #63
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Originally posted by VintagePunk


You choose to believe that a supernatural being put the process into motion. Having seen no evidence for this, I don't. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
That was my point, that athiesm is based on belief and not science every bit as much as being a God believer is. You said that current scientific knowledge points to there being no creator. That is incorrect, because when you get to the question of "Was there an intelligent being that put the Big Bang into motion", there is nothing that can be accurately stated except one's own opinion.
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Old 07-16-2006, 05:34 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


That was my point, that athiesm is based on belief and not science every bit as much as being a God believer is. You said that current scientific knowledge points to there being no creator. That is incorrect, because when you get to the question of "Was there an intelligent being that put the Big Bang into motion", there is nothing that can be accurately stated except one's own opinion.
IMO, you inserting a being who has not been shown to exist scientifically is a larger leap than my view that it was set off by a random event. Occam's Razor.
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Old 07-16-2006, 05:42 PM   #65
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Originally posted by VintagePunk


IMO, you inserting a being who has not been shown to exist scientifically is a larger leap than my view that it was set off by a random event. Occam's Razor.
Think about all the conditions that would have had to occur by complete coincidence in order for the Big bang to happen and then for evolution to occur without a creator. Now tell me that anything even close to that magnitude has ever been observed. Can't think of anything? Welcome to the world of faith.
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Old 07-16-2006, 05:55 PM   #66
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I can't think of anything else because that's obviously the biggest thing ever - existence as we know it. There IS nothing bigger.

So, I'm not feeling the faith just yet. Nice try, though.
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Old 07-16-2006, 06:05 PM   #67
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Originally posted by VintagePunk
I can't think of anything else because that's obviously the biggest thing ever - existence as we know it. There IS nothing bigger.

So, I'm not feeling the faith just yet. Nice try, though.
Sure you are. You have a belief in something you can't see nor have ever observed, nor have you seen or observed or can provide any proof for anything that even comes close to an event of such magnitude.

You can't prove it, but you believe it. That's called faith.
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Old 07-16-2006, 06:08 PM   #68
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I honesty don't care if anyone in here believes my beliefes are a figment of my imagination. I hear it all the time already (as do all christians) and I've learned to take it with a grain of salt.

If you truly have faith in something you won't have the "boohoo you insulted my faith and hurt my feelings!!" attitude.
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Old 07-16-2006, 06:17 PM   #69
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Originally posted by shart1780
If you truly have faith in something you won't have the "boohoo you insulted my faith and hurt my feelings!!" attitude.
That's kind of what I've been thinking all along. If your faith is that strong, then people who don't share that faith shouldn't threaten it.
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Old 07-16-2006, 06:28 PM   #70
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Sure you are. You have a belief in something you can't see nor have ever observed, nor have you seen or observed or can provide any proof for anything that even comes close to an event of such magnitude.

You can't prove it, but you believe it. That's called faith.
Semantics. I call it a logical acceptance of the direction that current scientific knowledge is pointing towards.
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Old 07-16-2006, 06:41 PM   #71
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Originally posted by VintagePunk


Semantics. I call it a logical acceptance of the direction that current scientific knowledge is pointing towards.
Not, it's not semantics, because "no creator" is not the direction toward which current scientific knowledge is pointing.
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Old 07-16-2006, 06:43 PM   #72
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Originally posted by shart1780
If you truly have faith in something you won't have the "boohoo you insulted my faith and hurt my feelings!!" attitude.
I do truly have faith, thank you very much. I won't say anything else about the discussion I was having with Amy, because I said everything I wanted to already.
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Old 07-16-2006, 06:45 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by shart1780
If you truly have faith in something you won't have the "boohoo you insulted my faith and hurt my feelings!!" attitude.
I appreciate what you're saying from a logical POV, but emotionally speaking, that's not always how human beings work. A person might be hypersensitive to remarks that could potentially be interpreted as suggesting they're morally corrupt, on the basis of some aspect of their beliefs or lifestyle, because they have painful memories of having been cut off from friends or family on those grounds. Or they might be hypersensitive to potential implications that they're stupid because they grew up watching one parent repeatedly insult the other's intelligence and thus have an over-the-top determination that no one ever speak to them that way. I'm certainly not suggesting that anything like this is always the case, however, I don't think one can ever know quite why someone else's buttons always seem to get pushed over some particular issue, and therefore one shouldn't jump to conclusions about what precisely accounts for that. It may not really have anything to do with said issue at all.
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Old 07-16-2006, 07:31 PM   #74
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


If I said a car was not designed or created by anyone, that it just happened out of mere coincidence and circumstance, you'd think I was nuts. But yet you believe that this is how the world began; that the big bang just happened out of pure circumstance and coincidence. You know that a car can't just assemble itself without a designer/creator, so why do you think the world just assembled itself without a designer/creator?
A car doesn't replicate with variation and pass down heritable information in it's genes, a car isn't a concequence of organic chemistry - you can't just take higher forms of life and say thats where it all started from - you need to take the most basic nucleotide sequence that could metabolise and self-replicate and from that natural selection acted and more complex life forms appeared, evidence for this goes all the way back to the Urey-Miller Experiment where the building blocks of life could be created from raw abiotic materials in an ealy earth type reducing atmosphere, it also encompasses the genetic evidence and commonality in organisms from earth.

It's pure circumstance that on the entire surface of the earth and possibly mars a permutation of amino acids arose that could replicate and metabolise but the evolutionary pressures are what lead to the more complex forms. If you can't think in terms of evolution then no biology makes any sense, including the origin of life.
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Old 07-16-2006, 07:33 PM   #75
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Angela, you are wrong about my intention. I am not trying to prove the worth of my views. I simply want everyone to abide by the same rules in these forums. In short, if I am expected to respect other's views, I expect people to respect mine. To explain further, I'll copy and paste part of what I wrote to Amy.

When people say "figment of imagination" they aren't talking about faith, they are saying "it doesn't exist". When you say God is a figment of imagination, you are disrespecting the beliefs of many people who believe in God. You are basically saying "Your beliefs are nothing more than mere imagination; there is nothing to them".

What I would hope for is a bit of respect for our views, not to have them dismissed as a "figment of my imagination". In this forum, Christians are expected to respect all views; if I were to tell you my views on Athiesm, it would raise a ruckus - people would accuse me of not being "tolerant" and being "disrespectful" of other viewoints. And yet, you feel that you have the right to disrespect my views by calling it a "figment of my imagination".
Thats just all kinds of wrong, you can maintain civil debate without granting respect to peoples views, especially when those views encompass the toxic and retrograde mechanisms of the human mind. The idea of tollerance extends up to being able to abide by peoples right to believe whatever they want to but at the same time it doesn't imbue protections of feelings, there is no right to have beliefs protected from criticism or challenge and that cuts over whichever school of thought one is coming from.
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