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Old 07-16-2006, 03:26 PM   #46
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Originally posted by dazzlingamy
Ok this made me laugh. Really. I cannot BELIEVE you are saying that I am the one not basing myself in logic that the world was created by science and the big bang and evolution and all of that, but that LOGIC dictates and deity waved his hands a few times and it all appeared. Do you honestly see how ludicrious this argument is. You talk about a car being complex, but yet I can see how people through evolution learnt how to put one together. I cannot see it just magically appear through a haze because some God put it there. It just seems so UNlogical to even suggest this.
I'm going to just forget all the other stuff, because we're going nowhere with that. You won't convince me, and I won't convince you. I've said what I needed to say, whether people agree with me or not.

However, I am addressing this part of your post, because I don't think my point was understood.

If I said a car was not designed or created by anyone, that it just happened out of mere coincidence and circumstance, you'd think I was nuts. But yet you believe that this is how the world began; that the big bang just happened out of pure circumstance and coincidence. You know that a car can't just assemble itself without a designer/creator, so why do you think the world just assembled itself without a designer/creator?
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Old 07-16-2006, 03:35 PM   #47
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I concur amy. I'm only 19 years old, and I was a full fervent/devout Christian for the first 14 years of my life and I turned into an Athiest with not an inch of belief (perhaps deism is becoming more appealing to me recently) in me from then on. My Mum and my Catholic school inundated me with meaningless, factually devoid dogma (I didn't see it as that back then) into me since birth which I happily accepted and never questioned. However, after about 14, I started to be able to think and analyse critically everything about my 'faith,' and everything about Catholicism didnt syncronise with my scientific mind. It is then I started reading about Christianity and to a lesser extent, the other main religions, from a factual perspective and understood how much corruption and lies have been spread throughout the history of modern religion. And my doubt is perpetuated by the understanding of human nature and how it is naturally flawed.
So it is through education that I became an Athiest, and I'm sure this is how many of your athiestic ways came about. If you possess the ability to have a TRUELY open mind and take into account various facts from a variety of sources, I can't see how anyone can be religious. I've found, that when I confront religious people with legitimate facts that should shake the foundations of their faith (like it did to me), they just completely negate them and shut them out or tell me to 'shutup'. I have discovered that it is very hard for a religious mind to be rational and logical, when faced with doubt. But the athiests mind is structured quite differently, it is open, and more susceptible to other points of views.
So yes in conclusion, my journey of athiesm can be summed up with a Bono quote 'The more you know, the Less you believe.'
And in answer to your topic question. We have no standing in the world today. Even in our modern world with science reducing the need for religious explanation and God, there is still an abundance of believers that don't seem to be swayed no matter what you tell them. The vast majority of the world will look down on us because the need for God, to them, is paramount to human nature.....to challenge that notion (like we do), is something almost subhuman.
If your so bothered by people of faith, why are you on a website for a band that is deeply spiritual and religious in so many ways? The bands view on this issue is generally the opposite of yours.
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Old 07-16-2006, 03:38 PM   #48
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Oh right, I did misread what you said. And I can see what you ae trying to say, but we are all so small minded still. Why if God made the world are there millions of other planets out therE? Why did he make them all? Also, I don't see that because we still have holes in theories because we are not advanced enough to be able to work things out completely that those holes have to be filled up with your God.

I still think its a much bigger leap to think one divine being created everything on this earth, then that is came about if a scientific way.
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Old 07-16-2006, 03:40 PM   #49
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80s, it sounds like you may already have arrived at this conclusion, but I think you should just let it go now. Objecting to the perceived implications of someone else's wording is fine, however, you've adequately made your point by this stage and I really don't want this to turn into another pointless back-and-forth of the "You people always..." type. amy started the thread to solicit other atheists' opinions on the religious backdrop to the Iraq war, not to throw down a gauntlet about some religious dogma or another for Christians to respond to. The perceived implication by some in the Moral Law thread that atheists were being labeled immoral didn't derail that one, and I don't see any reason for similar objections to derail this. Please let it go now and give the discussion a chance to get back on track. Thanks.
Quote:
Originally posted by Maoilbheannacht
If your so bothered by people of faith, why are you on a website for a band that is deeply spiritual and religious in so many ways? The bands view on this issue is generally the opposite of yours.
This is completely out of line. Whether a poster even likes U2 at all is completely irrelevant in FYM, let alone whether they buy into all their worldviews lock stock and barrel.
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Old 07-16-2006, 03:41 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


If I said a car was not designed or created by anyone, that it just happened out of mere coincidence and circumstance, you'd think I was nuts. But yet you believe that this is how the world began; that the big bang just happened out of pure circumstance and coincidence. You know that a car can't just assemble itself without a designer/creator, so why do you think the world just assembled itself without a designer/creator?

Your car analogy doesn't work. We know that cars don't spontaneously design and create themselves, humans create them. Despite shaky claims made in other threads, there has been no valid scientific evidence of a designer/creator of the universe, just a bunch of scientists who, in the current US religious climate are more comfortable saying "the universe is so complex and unlikely that there must have been something more." Our current scientific knowledge points toward a non-creationist argument. Maybe that'll change some day, but for now, that's all we have.
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Old 07-16-2006, 03:46 PM   #51
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Originally posted by VintagePunk

Our current scientific knowledge points toward a non-creationist argument.
No, it does not. The "current scientific knowledge" points to the Big Bang theory. It does not point to whether an intelligent creator/designer put it into effect or whether it happened spontaneously.
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Old 07-16-2006, 03:48 PM   #52
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Originally posted by yolland
80s, it sounds like you may already have arrived at this conclusion, but I think you should just let it go now. Please let it go now and give the discussion a chance to get back on track. Thanks.
I said "I am going to forget the other stuff". That's me letting go.
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Old 07-16-2006, 03:50 PM   #53
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This is completely out of line. Whether a poster even likes U2 at all is completely irrelevant in FYM, let alone whether they buy into all their worldviews lock stock and barrel.
Its completely out of line to ask a question out of curiousity? The reason this website exist is because of U2, FYM is a small part of this website. In fact, one is unable to even see FYM unless they become a registered member of this U2 fan website. I think this was intentially done to prevent large numbers of non-U2 fans from coming in and posting in this single forum.

Certainly, the world views of the band on particular issues including this one can be discussed in a forum like FYM?
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Old 07-16-2006, 03:52 PM   #54
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Originally posted by dazzlingamy
And side note here, as im intrigued. The bible doesn't mention dinosaurs does it? And we have proof that donosaurs roamed these lands way before humans were on earth, so if God made the world in seven days and one of those days he made humans where were they when the dinosaurs where here? Cause that is millions of years there.
Actually, the Bible does mention "leviathan", which is thought by many to be a huge sea dinosaur.

As for the seven days, I do not know if the world was made in seven days. The Bible does say that one day to man is like a thousand to the Lord. So, I don't know.
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Old 07-16-2006, 03:53 PM   #55
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The thing is with this designer theory is all the other questions it raises. Dinosaurs? Other planets? Two people making the whole world? Talking snakes? One son killing another (so therefore did the other son have to sleep with his mum to have children? i dont get it)

Its all so easy to say 'oh god did it' but, it opens up a lot more questions then answering anything.


But moving onto my original message. With the way these current issues are moving forward, now with the Israeli/Lebanon conflict, is there no end to these conflicts with a deep rooted sense of 'im right your wrong' religious overtones. I just feel so annoyed and helpless. I just think its so PATHETIC to have hatred for another person because he believes in something different, but where there is no proof of either of them. I mean where does this hatred come from?!
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Old 07-16-2006, 03:54 PM   #56
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


No, it does not. The "current scientific knowledge" points to the Big Bang theory. It does not point to whether an intelligent creator/designer put it into effect or whether it happened spontaneously.
You choose to believe that a supernatural being put the process into motion. Having seen no evidence for this, I don't. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Old 07-16-2006, 04:11 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
I said "I am going to forget the other stuff". That's me letting go.
OK. Thanks for that.
Quote:
Originally posted by Maoilbheannacht
Its completely out of line to ask a question out of curiousity? The reason this website exist is because of U2, FYM is a small part of this website. In fact, one is unable to even see FYM unless they become a registered member of this U2 fan website. I think this was intentially done to prevent large numbers of non-U2 fans from coming in and posting in this single forum.

Certainly, the world views of the band on particular issues including this one can be discussed in a forum like FYM?
That's not what I'm getting at, and I was replying as a poster, not as a mod in particular. You have to register to post on any forum in here. I have no idea as to the specifics of why some forums require registration for browsing and others don't, but I know it's not to ensure that registrants meet some kind of religious or political loyalty criteria. By that logic, only fairly liberal Christians "belong" in here. Yes, of course referencing Bono et al.'s views on some FYM topic is fine, but not as an implication that someone who doesn't share them doesn't belong in here.
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Old 07-16-2006, 04:32 PM   #58
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That's not what I'm getting at, and I was replying as a poster, not as a mod in particular. You have to register to post on any forum in here. I have no idea as to the specifics of why some forums require registration for browsing and others don't, but I know it's not to ensure that registrants meet some kind of religious or political loyalty criteria. By that logic, only fairly liberal Christians "belong" in here. Yes, of course referencing Bono et al.'s views on some FYM topic is fine, but not as an implication that someone who doesn't share them doesn't belong in here.
FYM discussion is of a political nature and could attract a substantial number of people to the website that are not actually U2 fans, there by making the operation of the site more difficult. Thats why I think you can't view FYM unless your a registered user. It sort of stems the number of people who would be coming to the website for ONLY non-U2 reasons.

I never said that a person who does not share U2's views does not belong there, but when you express a certain level of contempt for people of faith, it does cause one to question ones reasons for coming to a website of a band that has uniquely wrapped itself in faith and spirituality for a quarter of a century.
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Old 07-16-2006, 04:48 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maoilbheannacht
I never said that a person who does not share U2's views does not belong there, but when you express a certain level of contempt for people of faith, it does cause one to question ones reasons for coming to a website of a band that has uniquely wrapped itself in faith and spirituality for a quarter of a century.
Does that mean Adam has to get out of the band?

On the subject of atheism, I am an atheist but I don't see myself as a member of a group in society. The only thing 'we' share is a non-belief in something.
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Old 07-16-2006, 05:14 PM   #60
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Does that mean Adam has to get out of the band?

Once again, I never said anyone had to leave or get out of anything because of their beliefs. It should be noted that Adam obviously does not have a problem with his bands strong faith and spiritual beliefs and was even quoted on the ELEVATION tour saying that "God was walking through the room" on many nights.
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