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Old 07-16-2006, 10:40 AM   #31
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Originally posted by AussieU2fanman
But the athiests mind is structured quite differently, it is open, and more susceptible to other points of views.
Based on the number of people who convert to and from atheism at given points in their lives, I don't know how you can argue that an atheists mind is physically different from anyone else's. Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks is more like it. I've known Christians who converted to atheism and I've known atheists who've converted to Christianity and other religions. I would attribute it to how they view spirituality and the existence of God rather than their minds actually changing.

For the record, I believe in evolution (human even), I do not believe that the Bible is inerrant, I support gay rights, rights to choose, rights to proper sex ed...basic human rights in general, environmentalism, and trust scientific fact. But yeah, at the end of the day, I happen to believe in a god.

I think it's very offensive and judgmental to say that simply because of that, I must be a close-minded, self-righteous person who could only be stupid. I don't really see much of that here in FYM (I see religion being challenged, not attacked, which I think is great), but I see it a LOT in the "real world" and I think that is why a lot of atheists have a bad rap. I know it's definitely the minority that think that way, but JUST LIKE we see with the fundamentalist religious right, it's the minority that are the loudest and most persistent in hammering their obnoxious views into others.

I have many friends who are atheists or agnostics and I always appreciate their beliefs and points of view on anything from science to politics to yes, religion. I don't claim to be "right" because of a single religious conviction. It may affect the way I look at certain issues, but somehow I'm always coming to the exact same conclusions as my atheist contemporaries. The only "subhuman" thing any of us could ever do is make judgments about another based on religion, or lack thereof.

Amy, I did not find any of your posts offensive. Your insight is always appreciated. You (and anyone else) shouldn't have to feel like you need to hold back simply because you don't believe in the Christian god.
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Old 07-16-2006, 11:32 AM   #32
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Fully agree with you Amy.
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Old 07-16-2006, 11:34 AM   #33
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AussieU2fanman's experience is basically my experience. Everyone is trained by their parents to follow the same religion and never question it. Then as an adult, curiosity gets the better of you and you start looking around and questioning what you have been told by the adults. Like for me, I was baptized United as a baby, spent my primary and elementary years at a Catholic School without participating in any of the traditions ( I stayed behind in the classroom by myself during Easter mass, or communion during school time), spent high school at a Pentecostal school ( filled with hypocrites), my grandparents were Salvation Army ( I have seen the testifying at their services), and was forced to go to Sunday school for a few weeks and my father is a Buddhist.

After witnessing all the stuff over the years, for me, none of this made any sense. I then noticed how the original gods of the Egyptians, Aztecs, Mayans, Greeks and Romans were specifically suited to different things. Ancient gods were prayed to during drought or for the birth of a son or to solve a problem. Looking up to the sky during prayer to me seemed a perfectly normal response considering primitive man understood that the sun, moon, and stars were in the sky above but probably never knew what they were. Same for rain and clouds, eventually they understood that these things brought water and the growth of plants, but never grasped how it was just the natural processes of the planet. But eventually, all these deities became a mess and somewhere along the way, it was simplified to having one supreme deity in control of everything.

I also found it strange how much power the Catholic church had over the centuries along with how typically the most important person in most ancient civilizations was the religious priest or leader since they had the connections to the gods. Religion was used as a method of controlling populations and anything which questioned religion was considered evil. And how the Church of England was officially formed when Henry VIII wanted an annullment of his marriage, what the?. I found it puzzling as to if the Bible is so perfect, then why were there a ton of different groups with different rules all claiming to be the true path to God. Also, there are so many different religions on the planet, all claiming to be the one true path to salvation. So I surmised that it was a human trait in the past to create a deity to answer why it rains, why we are born, why we die, why we get sun, why plants grow, why sometimes the hunters caught an animal, etc. Even now, deities are still filling that purpose. We still don't know lotsa stuff so God is a convenient answer for the unknowns like death or the creation of the universe. I guess it is comforting to think that everything is in order.

I have met people who are almost in tears if you ask them a question about religion, they don't feel comfortable asking questions about their faith, they literally run away. It's why The Satanic Verses or The DaVinci Code upsets so many people. many people of faith have strong ties to their beliefs, and any questioning of this belief sometimes is abhorred since it could force them to reevaluate their entire life and what motivates their decisionmaking. And this can make some people uncomfortable which is perfectly understandable.

I have no interest in converting people to how I view the world. I just like hearing people explain why they believe what they believe as opposed to just saying " you don't question your faith". Of course, their are many other people of faith who are perfectly comfortable with a discussion of religion and its' dogma whether it be Muslims, Hindus or Christians. And I enjoy those discussions with people and we both walk away with a better understanding of one another. Nothing posted here is directed specifically towards anyone, it's just how I have experienced religion through my life.
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Old 07-16-2006, 12:48 PM   #34
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I agree with you Amy.But let's just say there is a god and the bible is real, only that it has been serverly perverted by man to have complete controll over people. Maybe most of the bible, Quaran and Torah are meant to controll people written by dishonest people.

I am a Devout Catholic and I am being more open minded about my religion. I am asking questions. I have stop going to church pretty much, because the foundation it was built upon has been ruined by man. I have alot of qualms against my Aunt who turned from Catholic to Baptist Christian. Her views on Muslims, Homosexuality and how she thinks Her hispanic race is superior over others.
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Old 07-16-2006, 01:31 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy


Religion is about faith isn't it? To my knowledge God hasn't come down to earth this year and say 'hey im the real deal, follow me!' has he? So you believe in him through faith, which could be said is your imagination.
That's a coput, Amy, and I don't believe that's what you were thinking when you said it. When people say "figment of imagination" they aren't talking about faith, they are saying "it doesn't exist". When you say God is a figment of imagination, you are dismissing and disrespecting the beliefs of many people who believe in God. You are basically saying "Your beliefs are nothing more than mere imagination; there is nothing to them".

Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy

Religious people believe he speaks to them, or sends them signs etc. How many of them would scoff at someone who said the trees were talking to them, or a traffic light was sending them signs? You'd call these people mentally ill and put them on medication. Yet when religious people talk about God, who has never shown anything to anyone in their lifetime, we have to believe it?
No one said you have to believe it, Amy. I never said that. What I would hope for is a bit of respect for our views, not to have them dismissed as a "figment of my imagination". In this forum, Christians are expected to respect all views; if I were to tell you my views on Athiesm, it would raise a ruckus - people would accuse me of not being "tolerant" and being "disrespectful" of other viewpoints. And yet, you feel that you have the right to disrespect my views by calling it a "figment of my imagination".

However, you're not even correct when you say that God "has never shown anything to anyone in their lifetime". That's simply not true. There are many cases of people being communcated to directly from God or an angel, and even more cases of miracles that could not be explained. In fact, in my life, both have occurred. My father was healed miraculously when he was on his death bed. I won't go into great detail, I'll just say that in 1990, the doctors told my mother to call my family in because my father was sure to die and very soon. However, I felt something in my spirit that he would not die and that I needed to pray in afith that he would live. I did, and my father lived another 3 years. The doctors could not explain it medically, they said it wasn't the medicine; it was a miracle. As for myself, my life was once saved because of a communication form God. The story is a long one, but I will shortenb it by not providing the exact details. One day, I was told by a voice in my head and spirit to do something very odd. I argued in my head a little bit, but the command kep getting stronger and more admant. So, I obeyed, not knowing why. I quickly discovered that if I hadn't obeyed, I would have been killed or seriously injured by someone's carelessness. You may not even believe that story but I swear it is true.

Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
And don't use the whole 'the world is god' excuse, cause i believe evolution and science has explained all that. So thats why i call it a figment of an imagination, because you see things that you believe are sent form God and turn that into truth....hence using your imagination to believe simple things are more then that. Thats what I see.
It takes more faith to believe that there is no God, Amy. How complex is an automobile? If you were standing there admiring a nice car and asked me "who designed and create that car?", and I said "No one. It just happened by mere chance and circumstance", would you believe me? No, so why do you believe that the world and human life and animal life, which are much more complex than a car, could ahe happened by mere chance and circumstance? At this point, you are the one who is stepping away from reason and logic, refusing to believe in something simply because you can't see it with your eyes. You can't see the wind, can you? No, but you believe it because you can see the effects of the wind. Why then, can you not believe in an intelligent creator, especially since you see the effects of that intelligent creator all around you?

Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
Scripture is from a book written by some guys about someone who they thought was divine. It wasn't written by God its self, so its just like a non fiction book about history. Yet you use those words like absolute gospel, and half the time twist the words around to match your point.
But we don't believe the Bible was written completely by man. We believe God gave man the words to write.

And as far as "twisting the words around" to make my point, I challenge you to point me to a time when I did that, and then, since you say I twisted the meaning, tell me what the true meaning is.

Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
And as for hatred filled words. Do you believe that anyone who doesn't believe in God will go to hell? But what if they said the same thing to you.
When did I say that you were going to hell, Amy? I never said that to you or anyone on these forums.

Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
And tell me, you've never see a TV evangelist getting all hepped up about the deviants in society? I can see it even if you can't.
So, you don't think people have a right to say "this or that is sin"?

How do you think our laws came about, Amy? Because of moral codes. Murder is against the law because the lawmakers believe murder to be morally wrong. Almost everyone of the laws that protect you and I are because of moral judgments that were made somewhere down the line.
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Old 07-16-2006, 01:31 PM   #36
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hispanics ARE superior, don't you think?
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Old 07-16-2006, 01:36 PM   #37
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
It is as though some need to prove the worth of their views. And you know why that is, shart? 'Cause a favourite angle around these parts is to imply and even outright argue that you cannot have a moral compass without faith. And you know what? Some people reckon an unseeable God is voodoo. So yeah, pardon them for being on the defensive. And you want to know something else for nothing? I love the 'best form of defence is attack' which is so prevalent on here.
Angela, you are wrong about my intention. I am not trying to prove the worth of my views. I simply want everyone to abide by the same rules in these forums. In short, if I am expected to respect other's views, I expect people to respect mine. To explain further, I'll copy and paste part of what I wrote to Amy.

When people say "figment of imagination" they aren't talking about faith, they are saying "it doesn't exist". When you say God is a figment of imagination, you are disrespecting the beliefs of many people who believe in God. You are basically saying "Your beliefs are nothing more than mere imagination; there is nothing to them".

What I would hope for is a bit of respect for our views, not to have them dismissed as a "figment of my imagination". In this forum, Christians are expected to respect all views; if I were to tell you my views on Athiesm, it would raise a ruckus - people would accuse me of not being "tolerant" and being "disrespectful" of other viewoints. And yet, you feel that you have the right to disrespect my views by calling it a "figment of my imagination".
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Old 07-16-2006, 02:04 PM   #38
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Just like everybody else, Dazzlingamy has a right to voice her opinion here as long as she doesn't break the forum rules. This is a place of discussion, if you can't handle other people's opinions, maybe fym isn't the place for you.

Having said that, I'm really curious now about your views of atheism.
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Old 07-16-2006, 02:27 PM   #39
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If dazzlingamy thinks that my beliefs are a figment of my imagination, so be it. I don't see that as disrespect. It's disagreement.
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Old 07-16-2006, 02:54 PM   #40
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If dazzlingamy thinks that my beliefs are a figment of my imagination, so be it. I don't see that as disrespect. It's disagreement.
It wouldn't be disrespect if I had said I believe in God" and she said "I don't." But she started the thread with it, by going on the attack - she said that God is a figment of our imagination. She was not provoked, she just flat out said that, amongst other things.

In fact, throughout this entire discussion, she has treated me with disrespect. She said that I can't think straight, and then tried to explain it, but in so doing, disrespected me even further by saying I am blinded by faith. Then later, she accused me of twisting the Bible's words.

Is any of this the way to hold a respectful conversation?
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Old 07-16-2006, 02:57 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Angela, you are wrong about my intention. I am not trying to prove the worth of my views. I simply want everyone to abide by the same rules in these forums. In short, if I am expected to respect other's views, I expect people to respect mine. To explain further, I'll copy and paste part of what I wrote to Amy.

When people say "figment of imagination" they aren't talking about faith, they are saying "it doesn't exist". When you say God is a figment of imagination, you are disrespecting the beliefs of many people who believe in God. You are basically saying "Your beliefs are nothing more than mere imagination; there is nothing to them".

What I would hope for is a bit of respect for our views, not to have them dismissed as a "figment of my imagination". In this forum, Christians are expected to respect all views; if I were to tell you my views on Athiesm, it would raise a ruckus - people would accuse me of not being "tolerant" and being "disrespectful" of other viewoints. And yet, you feel that you have the right to disrespect my views by calling it a "figment of my imagination".
And that's Amy's point - athiests/agnostics DO perceive Christianity as being a movement whose views are based upon something that we believe to be imaginary. This is offensive to you, and shouldn't be said? By virtue of what you're saying, in order to respect our beliefs, no claims should be made here by Christians about the truth of the bible, or the existence of God, either - but no one's asking that.
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Old 07-16-2006, 02:58 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrTeeth
Just like everybody else, Dazzlingamy has a right to voice her opinion here as long as she doesn't break the forum rules. This is a place of discussion, if you can't handle other people's opinions, maybe fym isn't the place for you.

Having said that, I'm really curious now about your views of atheism.
I can handle other people's opinions, Dr. Teeth. What I don't like is when those opinions are worded in a disrespectful manner, especially since I so often hear in this forum the outcry against people of faith; people saying that we don't respect other people's opinions. It's a double standard.
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Old 07-16-2006, 03:00 PM   #43
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And that's Amy's point - athiests/agnostics DO perceive Christianity as being a movement whose views are based upon something that we believe to be imaginary. This is offensive to you, and shouldn't be said? By virtue of what you're saying, in order to respect our beliefs, no claims should be made here by Christians about the truth of the bible, or the existence of God, either - but no one's asking that.
There's a way to say such things. She could have simply said "I don't believe God exists". The term "figment of imagination" has a very negative connotation to it. When people say that, their intent is to ridicule. You know that to be true.
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Old 07-16-2006, 03:02 PM   #44
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


There's a way to say such things. She could have simply said "I don't believe God exists". The term "figment of imagination" has a very negative connotation to it. When people say that, their intent is to ridicule. You know that to be true.
No, I don't know that to be true, and I think it's kind of presumptuous for you to claim to know her intent. Perhaps she was merely explaining.
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Old 07-16-2006, 03:15 PM   #45
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This has kinda turned away from my original post on not being happy a war im a part of is being fought in the name of something I don't believe in and therefore completely pointless and silly to me (like all wars are i guess!) but 80's you are just not getting me at all?! I will try and reply as best I can so we can gain some mutual understanding.

Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


That's a coput, Amy, and I don't believe that's what you were thinking when you said it. When people say "figment of imagination" they aren't talking about faith, they are saying "it doesn't exist". When you say God is a figment of imagination, you are dismissing and disrespecting the beliefs of many people who believe in God. You are basically saying "Your beliefs are nothing more than mere imagination; there is nothing to them".


I don't think im disrespecting your beliefs by saying I don't believe them and think you make them up. I do believe there is noting to them, because to ME i don't believe in your God, so why would I believe in your faith. I think if I said 'you are CRAZY for believing in God, you need to talk to a psychologist you crazy coot' then that is disrespecting you. I don't think you are crazy or weird for believing in God, I just don't understand how you can. And because of that, I believe that faith is your imagination taking something you've been taught or you see and turning it into a faith based answer.

Quote:
No one said you have to believe it, Amy. I never said that. What I would hope for is a bit of respect for our views, not to have them dismissed as a "figment of my imagination". In this forum, Christians are expected to respect all views; if I were to tell you my views on Athiesm, it would raise a ruckus - people would accuse me of not being "tolerant" and being "disrespectful" of other viewpoints. And yet, you feel that you have the right to disrespect my views by calling it a "figment of my imagination".
I didn't say you were trying to make me believe it, but on the whole i have noticed that religious people are quite pushy in their views and immediately think something is wrong with me if i don't share their opinions. Evidently, you are the same as you are saying im disrespecting you for not believing in God and therefore not believing in your faith, i don't see how this is disrespecting you, its just giving my honest opinion. and PLEASE i would love to know your views in Athieism

Quote:
However, you're not even correct when you say that God "has never shown anything to anyone in their lifetime". That's simply not true. There are many cases of people being communcated to directly from God or an angel, and even more cases of miracles that could not be explained. In fact, in my life, both have occurred. My father was healed miraculously when he was on his death bed. I won't go into great detail, I'll just say that in 1990, the doctors told my mother to call my family in because my father was sure to die and very soon. However, I felt something in my spirit that he would not die and that I needed to pray in afith that he would live. I did, and my father lived another 3 years. The doctors could not explain it medically, they said it wasn't the medicine; it was a miracle. As for myself, my life was once saved because of a communication form God. The story is a long one, but I will shortenb it by not providing the exact details. One day, I was told by a voice in my head and spirit to do something very odd. I argued in my head a little bit, but the command kep getting stronger and more admant. So, I obeyed, not knowing why. I quickly discovered that if I hadn't obeyed, I would have been killed or seriously injured by someone's carelessness. You may not even believe that story but I swear it is true.
Interesting, but no moe proof then you saying so. I can't se ein your head so I don't see what you see, or what you heard. Its all subjective isn't it?

Quote:
It takes more faith to believe that there is no God, Amy. How complex is an automobile? If you were standing there admiring a nice car and asked me "who designed and create that car?", and I said "No one. It just happened by mere chance and circumstance", would you believe me? No, so why do you believe that the world and human life and animal life, which are much more complex than a car, could ahe happened by mere chance and circumstance? At this point, you are the one who is stepping away from reason and logic, refusing to believe in something simply because you can't see it with your eyes. You can't see the wind, can you? No, but you believe it because you can see the effects of the wind. Why then, can you not believe in an intelligent creator, especially since you see the effects of that intelligent creator all around you?
Ok this made me laugh. Really. I cannot BELIEVE you are saying that I am the one not basing myself in logic that the world was created by science and the big bang and evolution and all of that, but that LOGIC dictates and deity waved his hands a few times and it all appeared. Do you honestly see how ludicrious this argument is. You talk about a car being complex, but yet I can see how people through evolution learnt how to put one together. I cannot see it just magically appear through a haze because some God put it there. It just seems so UNlogical to even suggest this.

And side note here, as im intrigued. The bible doesn't mention dinosaurs does it? And we have proof that donosaurs roamed these lands way before humans were on earth, so if God made the world in seven days and one of those days he made humans where were they when the dinosaurs where here? Cause that is millions of years there.


Quote:
But we don't believe the Bible was written completely by man. We believe God gave man the words to write.

And as far as "twisting the words around" to make my point, I challenge you to point me to a time when I did that, and then, since you say I twisted the meaning, tell me what the true meaning is.
I didn't mean you, so im sorry if you thought i meant you in your arguments, i mean that in a lot of arguments on here in FYM on the TV etc people use scripture to back up their opinions, but use the scripture as if is FACT, when it obviously isn't.

Quote:
When did I say that you were going to hell, Amy? I never said that to you or anyone on these forums.
I never said you said I was going to hell, I just said that you beleive people who arn't christian will go to hell don't you Isn't that what Christianity preaches? Worship no other God but me and all that?

Quote:
So, you don't think people have a right to say "this or that is sin"?

How do you think our laws came about, Amy? Because of moral codes. Murder is against the law because the lawmakers believe murder to be morally wrong. Almost everyone of the laws that protect you and I are because of moral judgments that were made somewhere down the line.
I'm just saying that a lot of preaching is done quite vicioously and hate filled and that I don't like a lot of what is being said (eg abortion, gay rights, other religions, persecuting people etc) and feel it is said in rather an attacking and hate filled way.

As others have said, this is my opinion. I think we can agree to disagree, but I thought i'd answer a few things you said, as i feel you were getting the wrong end of the stick. And for the last time, I don't see where i am disrespecting you? I don't beleive, you do where is the disrespect in that?
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