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Old 07-19-2006, 09:04 AM   #316
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What we see and often times feel is quantifable; that is objectively measureable. Any future understanding of the human mind will surely rattle the foundations of faith, almost as contentious as the genetic effects of race.
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Old 07-19-2006, 09:17 AM   #317
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


It's the million dollar question. If we're not seeing the same thing, than it makes sense we don't understand how the other defines it.
Have you 'seen' god, in the very strict sensory definition of 'see'? Of course not. I'm adhering to Wanderer's post, every 'feeling' of God you have experienced is exclusively attributable to that of neurochemicals. I used to have what many people would define as 'feelings of God,' in my life, fortunately I was prudent enough to circumvent the explanation of 'God speaking to me,' I knew what was really happening in my mind.
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Old 07-19-2006, 09:23 AM   #318
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Originally posted by fly so high!
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist"
The greatest trick Christianty ever pulled is convincing the world that a lack of any evidence CAN be used to prove the existance of such beings.
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Old 07-19-2006, 11:53 AM   #319
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Quote:
Originally posted by AussieU2fanman


Have you 'seen' god, in the very strict sensory definition of 'see'? Of course not. I'm adhering to Wanderer's post, every 'feeling' of God you have experienced is exclusively attributable to that of neurochemicals. I used to have what many people would define as 'feelings of God,' in my life, fortunately I was prudent enough to circumvent the explanation of 'God speaking to me,' I knew what was really happening in my mind.
I know I was asked to lay off this thread for a little while. Well, I've done that now, and I have something important to contribute in response to the above, so I'm going to.

Can you come up with an explanation for this true story of mine:

As I was driving northbound toward an intersection one evening, I received the following message. It was not an audible voice, yet it was a dictinct and clear command that came to my mind:

"Stop at the next interesection."

In my mind, I argued with the command saying "but the light is green".

The command was addended:

"Stop at the next interesection because that car is not going to stop."

I looked to my right, and the car approaching the intersection westbound was indeed stopping.

I argued in my mind, "Yes it is."

But still the command was persistent:

"Stop at the next interesection because that car is not going to stop."

So reluctantly, I obeyed, and stopped at a green light. The car traveling westbound stopped at its red light. However, a car that I had not seen, a blue Mustang traveling east did not stop - she blew her red light at a speed of at least 45 or 50 miles an hour. I would have been killed or seriously injured.

Can you explain this with any non-supernatural explanation?
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Old 07-19-2006, 12:11 PM   #320
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I know I was asked to lay off this thread for a little while. Well, I've done that now, and I have something important to contribute in response to the above, so I'm going to.

Can you come up with an explanation for this true story of mine:

As I was driving northbound toward an intersection one evening, I received the following message. It was not an audible voice, yet it was a dictinct and clear command that came to my mind:

"Stop at the next interesection."

In my mind, I argued with the command saying "but the light is green".

The command was addended:

"Stop at the next interesection because that car is not going to stop."

I looked to my right, and the car approaching the intersection westbound was indeed stopping.

I argued in my mind, "Yes it is."

But still the command was persistent:

"Stop at the next interesection because that car is not going to stop."

So reluctantly, I obeyed, and stopped at a green light. The car traveling westbound stopped at its red light. However, a car that I had not seen, a blue Mustang traveling east did not stop - she blew her red light at a speed of at least 45 or 50 miles an hour. I would have been killed or seriously injured.

Can you explain this with any non-supernatural explanation?


i think Joseph Smith would agree with you: it was God talking directly to you in a manner similar to how God told Joseph Smith that he would be able to find buried gold and treasure through the use of a magic stone or by looking into a hat.

you cannot prove the existence of the supernatural without independent verification, and if only you heard the voice, it remains unable to be either verified or falsified.

but what matters is whether or not it was real to you.
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Old 07-19-2006, 12:22 PM   #321
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Thinking about the original post it struck me that Tony Blair even though he's known for his religious faith has never to my knowledge used as an argument that the war in Iraq was partly justified because it was what his God would have wanted or he had a calling from God as Bush has purported happened to him. If he had done so he would probably have been completely hammered for it in the press here. One difference between England and America seems to be that England is largely a secular country now with only a very small number of people bothering to attend any Christian church (with the exception of Christmas Eve when some go for a drunken sing a long to carols after the pubs have shut!), whereas in America it seems from over here that a far higher percentage go to Christian churches on a regular basis, with some of these churches being quite extreme in their views. I'm sure if this isn't the case someone will put me right!
Was Bush then using the God calling card as a cynical attempt to try to appeal to his many voters who are Christians as they would immediately support any religious justification for the war, his other arguments for justfiying it having failed? Has this had any backlash in the States or did he receive support for it?
Sadly wars will always happen even if the world ever became totally secular but using the justification that a God supports such a war is to my mind completely abhorrent and just inflames the situation.
Given some of the dogmatic, implacable views expressed by some of Christians on this thread does anybody else find it ironic that the title of this forum is Free Your Mind?.
Thanks also in particular to Trevster2k for his posts. He's articulated a lot of my thoughts far better than I could.
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Old 07-19-2006, 12:32 PM   #322
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
[B]

you cannot prove the existence of the supernatural without independent verification, and if only you heard the voice, it remains unable to be either verified or falsified.
You're right; I can't prove it, and I wasn't attempting to. Someone said that the "feelings of God'God speaking"" could be explained away, so I responded by asking if he could explain away what happened to me.


Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
but what matters is whether or not it was real to you.
It was real to me. It was real. I know it happened; I experienced those moments. That event was every bit as real as the fac that I am breathing at this moment.
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Old 07-19-2006, 12:39 PM   #323
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
It was real to me. It was real. I know it happened; I experienced those moments. That event was every bit as real as the fac that I am breathing at this moment.


and this is why i'm agnostic and not atheist.

if it was real to you, then it was real. if God is real to you, then God is real. i think independent verification of God as a requirement for existence of something that by definition is neither verifiable or falsifiable totally misses the question.

the absence of evidence of God isn't evidence of his absence, and vice versa.

so the best people can do is look within, and respect everyone else who looks within and finds different things.
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Old 07-19-2006, 12:46 PM   #324
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Originally posted by Irvine511


so the best people can do is look within, and respect everyone else who looks within and finds different things.
Right, and I am respectful of athiests.

I don't agree with them, but I don't ridicule them.
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Old 07-19-2006, 02:49 PM   #325
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God can be real to one person and not real to another...?
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Old 07-19-2006, 03:04 PM   #326
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God can be real to one person and not real to another...?


precisely.
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Old 07-19-2006, 03:10 PM   #327
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That's not possible.
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Old 07-19-2006, 03:23 PM   #328
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That's not possible.


of course it's possible.

it basically says that objective proof of God is not just impossible, but it's irrelevant to the relevance of God for the individual.

unless the individual is bothered by the lack of objective proof.
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Old 07-19-2006, 05:54 PM   #329
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Sorry amy, but there's not much more I can do to referee this. Some of what's happened since I last checked in is fine, some of it's not, but I can't hover over this waiting for the next not-fine exchange to close it.
Quote:
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I guess I have no choice but to stop if I'm being threatened by a mod though

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Is there any type of decent accusation against this?
Threats and accusations...methinks thou doth protest too much. Derailments and repeated refusals to cooperate with the thread starter's intent; the loud and clear messages from other participants that they were fed up with being hounded; and my own requests to respect both of the former is more like it. In the last several pages no fewer than 9 posters, including several religious folks, explicitly made or endorsed complaints (in several cases repeatedly) that the thread kept getting hijacked and/or that they had already answered the (interjected) line of questioning being posed over and over as best as they could and wanted to get back to the thread topic.

The two of you and A_W are all up for an exhaustive round of back-and-forth on the topic. Fine. Email each other and continue the discussion that way. I don't myself have a problem with this approach to debate and would be content to let it play out here, *if* it was clear to me that the majority in here wanted that *and* it was in line with the thread starter's intention. Neither is the case.

Like I said earlier, there is no such thing as a thread with a "Keep Out" sign, which makes it hard to be optimistic about the future of threads on this topic. Unfortunately some people on both sides, whether out of sincere ignorance or mere rhetorical device I can't tell, insist on presenting their questions and/or personal outlooks in the form of utterly absurd caricatures of how most people on the other side actually think and what they actually believe. That's the tinderbox right there. If you can't refrain from doing that, and others can't refrain from responding in kind, then every thread on this subject is going to turn into a mess.

It doesn't have to be this way. But a discussion that's come to people posting simply to say that they refuse to acknowledge another poster because they've had it with circular arguments is not a discussion worth continuing.
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