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Old 07-19-2006, 05:35 AM   #301
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Me too please!!

Its hard when someone cannot accept your answer so contiues to tell you you're not explaining it properly. Manaja! haha

So fellow atheists, have you had trouble with religious people in the past due to your views? We did a few years back. A lady was going house to house reading bits out of the Bible. I politely told her I wasn't interested, but she persisted, I then told her I was agonostic and therefore was not interested in listening to her preach with the bible. The look on her face was priceless! Unfortunately over the next two months she would ring the doorbell all the time with various members of her church including a priest at one time (apparently we were living in sin) she then started leaving Bibles and bits of scribbled paper by our door. It wasn't until I found her dumping our mail on the ground to wedge a bible in our postbox that I went off a threatened to call the police and 'tell the church you've been victimising me' She went pale and has never approached the house again but when I see her when I'm going for my morning run she always makes the cross at me Some people!
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Old 07-19-2006, 05:41 AM   #302
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Well, my grandparents used to call me a heathen, does that count?
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Old 07-19-2006, 06:09 AM   #303
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has no right suggesting our views are incorrect.
Wrong, the right to tell people they are incorrect is a fundamental aspect of free speech. The right that protects those assumptions and assertions is the very same that allows me to attack the malicious expression of human nature that belief represents.
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Old 07-19-2006, 06:25 AM   #304
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Again, I'm not questioning whether you can love and be happy without God. I know for a fact that you can lead a happy life without God. I'm asking you to logically explain to me why it matters in the grand scheme of things. Why do you feel you can judge others about their actions in a universe with no higher meaning? Your emotions and thoughts would make perfect sense in a scientific sense, but I'm asking you if they matter in any other sense.
But the nature of this debate is that the atheists are arguing that there is no other sense to it beyond a reducable materialistic one, all the way to subatomic particles government by a limited number of rules and constants. Atheism does not mean relativism, one can be very strong in the philisophical conviction of objective reality in a Godless world and also condemn violations of liberties, the rights and liberties are the protections of sentient organisms that we recieve and grant in engagements with eachother, their relative goodness is a concequence of logical consistency and adoption by individuals due to their favourable nature - not the threat of force.
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Old 07-19-2006, 07:41 AM   #305
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I just noticed that I used government instead of governed, an FYM freudian slip

Anyhow heres a decent documentary that seems to paralell the points that have been made, I found it while looking for a good Dawkins quote on atheism.

The Root of all Evil: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...66746249268230

Virus of the Mind: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...31458224461127
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Old 07-19-2006, 07:45 AM   #306
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I'm not sure what i am to be honest.........I believe in evolution,nature and luck.........i believe in Ying and Yang. I don't believe there is a "heaven" or "hell" because i think Earth is both heaven and hell at times for all people (alot more for some parts of this world) that occupy this planet.
But i do believe a certain type of energy is responsible for all of it ....is it God?...don't know.......is it Satan?......don't know.
But i do remember a quote from
"The usual suspects"............ "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist"
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:12 AM   #307
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I know this will sound like a cop-out, but the fact that I believe in God grants me certain liberties as to skipping out on logic (I'm gonna get bashed for that), but only when it directly applies to God's miraculous work in this world, which I could never claim to explain.
It's not a cop-out. If you believe in God, you can't possibly "explain" him using human logic. It would be unreasonable and would be a very restricted concept of God.
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:17 AM   #308
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Likewise the argument of design offers a very restricted explanation of the complexity of life, we can't just explain an improbable event with an even more improbable agent. Furthurmore any discussion about what matters has to be taken from the position that the Bible is not an inerrant collection of documents and the world does not contain supernatural events, it is not a resonable piece of evidence to the existence of a deity, in point of fact the absence of any evidence towards a deity should stop us from entertaining the concept in the first place, the argument of design really falls flat on it's face in light of what scientific investigation has yielded about the history of Earth and Life, it was not created or crafted and we can explain it's processes on the basis of what actually exists. No need for God, and I would venture furthur no want for God.

Perhaps one fo the most interesting aspects of faith is that the most brilliant mind can create the greatest justifications for their own beliefs regardless of evidence to the contrary. The argument about the neccessity of cause or greater purpose seems to be part of that, one persons fundamental proof cannot be violated from external perspective.
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:31 AM   #309
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Likewise the argument of design offers a very restricted explanation of the complexity of life, we can't just explain an improbable event with an even more improbable agent.

If my "complexity of life" you mean evolution of various species, there's nothing the Bible denying this. I've no trouble believing in a God and evolution. I've no trouble using logic for science, math, etc - human concepts. But using human logic to define God cheapens the concept of a God.
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:35 AM   #310
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And I fully recognise that people reconcile their faith with the real world as much as they can ~ to some it strengthens it but for others such compromise would falsify their worldview, although any influence of a creator acting through evolution with a guiding hand is totally unnecessary and there is no evidence for it.
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:39 AM   #311
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


It's not a cop-out. If you believe in God, you can't possibly "explain" him using human logic. It would be unreasonable and would be a very restricted concept of God.
It's the superlative form of cop-outs, if there is one. It's an extremely transparent way of saying 'God doesn't exist and has no effect in this world.' It's so blatantly transparent is sickening. Whenever we question your God about things that make absolutely no sense and we run into wall after wall after wall, the Christians textbook response is, 'Do not even begin to try to understand God, he is far too complex, so shutup and do not question him!' It's just a very easy way for Christians to write off any criticism about the foundation of their faith. It's a cop-out.
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:46 AM   #312
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It's the superlative form of cop-outs, if there is one. It's an extremely transparent way of saying 'God doesn't exist and has no effect in this world.' It's so blatantly transparent is sickening. Whenever we question your God about things that make absolutely no sense and we run into wall after wall after wall, the Christians textbook response is, 'Do not even begin to try to understand God, he is far too complex, so shutup and do not question him!' It's just a very easy way for Christians to write off any criticism about the foundation of their faith. It's a cop-out.
Perhaps failing to see what's right in front of you because you can't explain it through human logic is also a cop-out? I don't think that way, but many do.
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:51 AM   #313
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But then just to take that adopted line of thinking along I may ask what particular thing in front of me, since in the world all I have ever come across is matter and energy.
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:51 AM   #314
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And what's right in front of me?
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Old 07-19-2006, 09:01 AM   #315
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Originally posted by AussieU2fanman
And what's right in front of me?
It's the million dollar question. If we're not seeing the same thing, than it makes sense we don't understand how the other defines it.
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