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Old 07-17-2006, 11:09 PM   #151
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
It's scarce surpise that dictators can craft cults of personality when there is such an intrinsic mechanism in the human mind to surrender individuality to the mob.
I'm really as individual as a person can come, A_Wanderer. I have my own distinct personality, I am not a "herd mentality" type of guy. You can ask anyone who's known me for even 6 months, and he/she will tell you that I am not one to join a movement or even hang around with too many people at a time. I have accurately been described as a rebel. This is true in my life outside the organized church and within the organized church. I have taken stances against things that chucrhes have done, often at the risk of looking like I'm "not a team player".

I have not "surrendered to the mob".

What I have done is accepted God's free gift of grace, because I was tired of beating myself silly trying to stand on my own.
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Old 07-17-2006, 11:17 PM   #152
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I'm not going to address why people hate Christians, because we've all been through that a million times. But i will address why I think people don't want to follow Christ and hate and ridicule him and his message. Here are some reasons I've thought of.

(1)This is an "independent" world. From day one, most of us are taught to stand our own, make our own way in the world, to not rely on anyone but ourselves. Society reinforces that at every turn. The Gospel is the total opposite; it's about dependence - on God. Christ wants people to rely on him. Christ says "you CAN'T do it on your own...you need me", but we have a hard time accepting that.

(2)No one wants to give up control. People want to be in control of their own lives, do exactly what they want to do. Christ's way is to let God take control. No one wants to submit to someone else's control.

(3)The world says "what's right for you may not be right for some" (sorry, I just had to quote the lyrics from the Different Strokes theme song). To the world, there is no absolute right and wrong; what's right or wrong is completely subjective. No one wants to be told he's wrong. People don't want to think of themselves as sinners. That is not how the Gospel is at all. The heart of the Gospel is Christ's love as evidenced by his scarificial death on the cross, specifically for those who are lost in sin - that is, all of us. And according to the Gospel, you cannot benefit form this sacrifice until you come to a point where you realize you are a sinner and that you can't earn your way into a relationship with God.


Everyone knows that it does bother me when people ridicule Christ and his message. However, at this point, it should not surprise me. Christ himself said that that the world would hate him, his message and his followers.
Why do you assume that people hate Christians and ridicule/hate Jesus? That seems to me to be a pretty defensive position to hold. For the record, I neither hate Christians, nor do I hate or ridicule Jesus. From historical records documenting his life, he seems to be an admirable individual.

I do agree with much of your assessment as to why people choose not to embrace religion. Unlike you though (I'm guessing), I perceive those reasons to be positives. What I do disagree with is your claim that athiests believe right and wrong is subjective. I don't believe that that's the case for most athiests, and certainly not for myself. As well, most athiests do not go about their lives in isolation, depending on no one. They form social, familial and intimate connections with others.
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Old 07-17-2006, 11:28 PM   #153
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Why do you assume that people hate Christians and ridicule/hate Jesus? That seems to me to be a pretty defensive position to hold. For the record, I neither hate Christians, nor do I hate or ridicule Jesus. From historical records documenting his life, he seems to be an admirable individual.

I do agree with much of your assessment as to why people choose not to embrace religion. Unlike you though (I'm guessing), I perceive those reasons to be positives. What I do disagree with is your claim that athiests believe right and wrong is subjective. I don't believe that that's the case for most athiests, and certainly not for myself. As well, most athiests do not go about their lives in isolation, depending on no one. They form social, familial and intimate connections with others.
I was simply answering a question. Read the post before mine. Irvine asked what it is about Christ that is so off-puuting that it creates such a strong reaction. I answered him.

Seems to me that you are the one being defensive at this point. I never said that you hate Christians or Christ. I also never said that Athiests don't believe in right or wrong. Maybe you need to reread the post. I didn't pinpoit any certain group of people, I said "people".

People do hate and ridicule Christ and Christians. You see it on TV, at the movies, in all walks of life. I've seen it on this forum; heck I've even seen it in this thread.
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Old 07-17-2006, 11:31 PM   #154
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I was simply answering a question. Read the post before mine. Irvine asked what it is about Christ that is so off-puuting that it creates such a strong reaction. I answered him.

Seems to me that you are the one being defensive at this point. I never said that you hate Christians or Christ. I also never said that Athiests don't believe in right or wrong. Maybe you need to reread the post. I didn't pinpoit any certain group of people, I said "people".

People do hate and ridicule Christ and Christians. You see it on TV, at the movies, in all walks of life. I've seen it on this forum; heck I've even seen it in this thread.
And I'm a person, so I responded.
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Old 07-17-2006, 11:42 PM   #155
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Originally posted by VintagePunk


And I'm a person, so I responded.
That's okay by me that you responded, but I don't know you nor do I know anything about you, and you have never given me any reason to accuse you of hating Christians or not believing in absolute right and wrong, so I wouldn't do it.
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Old 07-17-2006, 11:52 PM   #156
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That's okay by me that you responded, but I don't know you nor do I know anything about you, and you have never given me any reason to accuse you of hating Christians or not believing in absolute right and wrong, so I wouldn't do it.
Fair enough. I just thought it logical that since the context of the discussion is non-believers, that they were the 'people' implicitly being referred to.
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Old 07-18-2006, 12:29 AM   #157
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Hmmm, so I guess posting some Stephen Colbert, Jon Stewart, Kevin Smith and Family Guy would be upsetting some people in this thread.

Actually, most satire based on Jesus is because of the different church structures themselves, not Jesus himself. Jesus's teachings were all positive and somehow a lot of what he talked about got umm, miscontrued by some.
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Old 07-18-2006, 12:33 AM   #158
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


People do hate and ridicule Christ and Christians. You see it on TV, at the movies, in all walks of life. I've seen it on this forum; heck I've even seen it in this thread.
Do they really hate Christ?

Or do they ridicule the Jerry Falwells, Pat Robertsons, Westboro Baptist Churches of the world?
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Old 07-18-2006, 12:52 AM   #159
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I like the way you think, BVS!
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Old 07-18-2006, 12:57 AM   #160
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I like the way you think, BVS!
That's mutual!!!
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Old 07-18-2006, 01:04 AM   #161
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I don't hate christians, and a certainly have no ridiculed them at all (im sure you'll disagree 80s for some reason!) but i certainly don't have christ because I. DON'T. BELIEVE. HE. WAS. THE. SON. OF. GOD. Furthermore, I don't believe there IS A GOD. So what annoys me is when religious people think that we are attacking them by not being a believer. That suddenly your faith is in question because WE don't accept it. This world is 'each to their own' but with my original post and subsequent posts, I feel on the whole, that if you are not religious you are seen to be 'wrong' or that something has made you this way and all i need to do it accpet Christ into my heart and it will make me life better. That irks me something firece.

Quote:
No one wants to be told he's wrong. People don't want to think of themselves as sinners. That is not how the Gospel is at all. The heart of the Gospel is Christ's love as evidenced by his scarificial death on the cross, specifically for those who are lost in sin - that is, all of us. And according to the Gospel, you cannot benefit form this sacrifice until you come to a point where you realize you are a sinner and that you can't earn your way into a relationship with God.
Well maybe the Gospel isn't supposed to be percieved that way, but the way Christinaity (and other religions) are set up it is telling EVERYONE who doesn't follow their principles that WE'RE in the wrong, and if we don't convert we're going to 'hell'. I think this is what a lot of people are annoyed with. The thought of me spending eternity in hell doesn't worry me as 1. I don't believe in it to start with and 2. if its real, all my favourite people will be down there with me, while the GWB will be up there

Also, straying from my point, I don't think i like being in a church where its most trusted advisors can abused people and then confess their sins and God forgives them. I wouldnt respect a God who did that - just my opinion.
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Old 07-18-2006, 01:21 AM   #162
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Do they really hate Christ?

Or do they ridicule the Jerry Falwells, Pat Robertsons, Westboro Baptist Churches of the world?
Bingo!

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Old 07-18-2006, 01:29 AM   #163
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Wow, Amy, I just wanted to say I'm sorry your thread got hijacked like it did. You asked for atheists to share their views and they've just about been drowned out by the believers taking offense. That must be frustrating.

I know I've been frustrated when, say, Christians are debating on a forum on some Biblical topic and an atheist drops in to mock and ridicule. It's like "you don't even believe in this stuff! Why are you here?" Likewise, it seems to me that those of us who are Christians should have allowed the atheists to respond to your questions without interjecting and taking the discussion off track.
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Old 07-18-2006, 01:34 AM   #164
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Amy, you brought up an interesting point about God. Yeah, in the Catholic church, you can pretty much do whatever you want, show up Sunday, confess to the priest, be given penance and off you go to start a fresh week, guilt free. Wow, that's awesome. What a great system.

Another that I find troubling is if God is so loving and forgiving, how come if you don't accept Him, that's it, you're out of the club and it's fire and brimstone for you in eternity in the pits of hell. Sounds like a dictatorship to me, it's my way or the highway. Billions of people don't believe in God, (the Christian God), are they all going to hell or what about the millions of people who never heard of God in the past?

Christianity is not the only religion with the problems of being misinterpreted by people who in turn screw with the minds of others. Islam has the same problem along with Judaism and Hinduism. For some reason, the divine teachings aren't clear and succinct enough to have one version.

Yeah, yeah, I'm criticizing Christianity. It's my opinion, I'm allowed to share my views, no one has to like them. Hey, perhaps someone should start a thread on denominations that all the Christians are affiliated with so we can hear different doctrines from each Church. I think that would be an interesting discussion.
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Old 07-18-2006, 01:39 AM   #165
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Wow, Amy, I just wanted to say I'm sorry your thread got hijacked like it did. You asked for atheists to share their views and they've just about been drowned out by the believers taking offense. That must be frustrating.

I know I've been frustrated when, say, Christians are debating on a forum on some Biblical topic and an atheist drops in to mock and ridicule. It's like "you don't even believe in this stuff! Why are you here?" Likewise, it seems to me that those of us who are Christians should have allowed the atheists to respond to your questions without interjecting and taking the discussion off track.
Good points, maycocksean. I generally stay away from the religious discussions about God since I have nothing to contribute since as you say, I don't even believe in the stuff. But here in this thread, I am with my peeps.
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