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Old 07-17-2006, 10:46 AM   #136
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Originally posted by DrTeeth
Does acrobatmanism claim that?
What does acrobatmanism claim?

(I can't believe that we can't find anything better to do on aMonday morning than discuss a religion that doesn't even exist )
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Old 07-17-2006, 11:35 AM   #137
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What does acrobatmanism claim?

(I can't believe that we can't find anything better to do on aMonday morning than discuss a religion that doesn't even exist )
acrobatsism founded itunes and purchased nike.......
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Old 07-17-2006, 11:48 AM   #138
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Re: What about us atheists? Where do we stand?

Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
What do you do when you heart breaks over people dying, and feel there is no just cause at all for it? Where is my voice in amongst the hatred filled shouts of the religious to one another?
My question is, why do you care then? If you don't believe, which is fine, then what difference does it make if someone lives for 20 years or 50? In the grand scheme of things, it's barely an eyeblink in the history of the universe. If we're all just wormfood anyway, why put all this effort in caring where you belong anyway. It's pretty much over before it's even begun.

Are Bush and Bin Laden, Hezbollah & Israel using religion as a mask for other motives, almost certainly to one extent or another and they're pretty complicated motives involving security, money, nationalism, and culture. But I think instead of resenting what's going on because you can't travel, you should try and develop a less self centered view. It may open you up to your own answers to the questions you ask.
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Old 07-17-2006, 01:37 PM   #139
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Originally posted by vaz02
seriously though , what are you waffling about?
i never mentioned anything about " you all" or "christians" in that quote, whats so ever.

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Originally posted by yolland
Do you realize the implications of what you're saying?
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Originally posted by vaz02
yeah , I wish Christianity never existed .

so wot ? i dont want you all killed , i just want you all to reconsider

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btw if you believe all the stories in the bible you are most likely to believe in the following:
Where did I say I "believed all the stories in the Bible"? Anyhow, this seems like a complete straw man argument. You're implicitly defining religious people, for your own purposes, as people who "believe all the stories in the Bible" according to "believe" as defined by you, which I gather from your Grimm's et al. analogy means thinking Yup, the world really was created in 7 days and Noah really did take 2 of every species in existence onto some boat with him.

Why not just ask--instead of mockingly pouncing on the most extreme literalist concept of "belief" possible and using that as cause for ridicule? This is no better and makes no more sense than suggesting that if you're an atheist, then here you might want to check out this link about Pol Pot or Stalin, because I think you'll find much to approve of in there.
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WW 2 Uhm extermination of the Jewish race?
You just said it right there--extermination of the Jewish race. The Nazis killed atheist Jews, Jewish converts to Christianity, Jews of whatever (non)belief system imaginable precisely because they defined "Jew" racially--that was what eugenics was all about. There was also a political rationalization that Jews were treasonous subversives who had deliberately ruined the German economy through "control" of the banks, had "stabbed Germany in the back" at Versailles through behind-the-scenes string-pulling, were fomenting Communist revolution, etc., but obviously those arguments had nothing to do with religion either. Hitler couldn't have cared less about the religious (non)beliefs of whichever Jews, least of all German Jews, who were the most secularized in the world at the time. His notion of the nature of "the Jewish threat" was not about Judaism as a religion.

Now, if you're talking about European anti-Semitism in the last millennium before that, then you would have a point; that certainly had a strongly religious slant. And fair enough, that history helped create a climate that made Hitler's anti-Semitism more acceptable to German voters--although he still had to downplay it when campaigning to avoid being written off by repectable middle-class Germans as a crank, and even when he did incorporate it into his speeches, it was of course along those "race science" and "political subversives" lines he genuinely believed in, which were acceptable to many voters precisely because they had that "modern," scientific, secular, none-of-that-embarrassingly-old-fashioned-"Christ-killer"-stuff ring to them.

Nonetheless, it stretches the concept of "religious war" to the point of meaningless arbitrariness to say this thus made his "war" against the Jews religious. And why even call the Holocaust a "war," anyway? The Jews were not combatants, they were not engaging in violent attacks against Germany, and their own loathing of Hitler had absolutely nothing to do with his being from a Catholic background or whatever.
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(I can't believe that we can't find anything better to do on aMonday morning than discuss a religion that doesn't even exist )
Since as you can see, we collectively have so much potential to work out all the world's Big Problems and Most Pressing Questions together...
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Old 07-17-2006, 02:26 PM   #140
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Anyhooo, I know I'm only fairly new to this forum. and initially, I was kind of excited to find a place where I could read and discuss like minded people's views and stories about U2, music and just about everything else. And there's alot of that here, of course! But I must confess, I also find myself constantly befuddled, irritated, confused and on the odd occassion, just down-right furious at some of the comments that I've read. Especially about religion and all that it entails.


Anyway, I would be mighty pleased if there were more discussions relating to this topic, in an open-minded and positive manner, that is
I'm in the same position here, having recently joined. I find a lot of the threads very thought-provoking but I'm amazed how dogmatic some people are with little resepect for other's points of view. From my own perspective I would call myself a humanist but I haven't ruled out the existence of a God.
I remember discussing this issue at length when I was at university -some 25 years ago now mind but I did a degree in Medieval and Modern European History. The general consensus at the time was that very few wars if any were solely caused by religion; in most cases they were due to various other, often complex factors. Obviously the Crusades are mentioned by many as a religious war but they were more a series of military expeditions directly authorised by the Pope. Interestingly the Christian fighters were believed to receive special recognition and awards from God for taking the cross against the Infidel. Religion was used though by many leaders at the time to justify their actions - King Philip of Spain for instance stated that the Anglo/Spanish War and the use of the Spanish Armada was in the name of religion as a result of Elizabeth 1's excommunication by the Pope for her Protestant Reformation. The Pope went so far as to promise the blessings of a martyr's reception in heaven to anyone who would assassinate Elizabeth -sounds familiar in this current climate?
What I think is also distressing is the number of people who have been persecuted and murdered over the centuries by their own government and authorities directly in the name of religion. Whilst a few heretics may have posed some threat to the King/ State etc, in the main they were a minority who just because their faith conflicted with that of the country at the time led to their exile, death etc.
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Old 07-17-2006, 07:55 PM   #141
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Another FYM thread on atheism. 139 responses. I’ve perused much of the thread, but really don’t see many points presented about why atheism stands on its own. Is it really its own philosophy, or is it a rejection of religion? And if there is a rejection of religion, why is the tendency to be a rejection of Jesus Christ?
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Old 07-17-2006, 08:43 PM   #142
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Ok back to the point of the entitled question

My dads side of the family aint religious at all , my mums side originate from Ireland and so i assume they are catholic. My mum and dad don't believe in that bollocks so they have never pressurised me into doing so either, so its kind of stuck.

During school i had RE lessons ( religious education) and the teachers i had seemed like they were preaching , and they put religion across in the way like it was the be all and end all, which is defo aint for me.

I just cant believe people still believe this medieval way of thinking , it really is primitive stuff really. BE good and you go to heaven , be bad and you go to hell. Sure be a bad boy and the bogey man will get you, Honestly come on that is pathetic surely.

Also people believe in all these different gods which is fine by me but then they fight each other in the name or honour of these gods which is puzzling because what god could possible forgive someone for murder or violence?

Then there is the " god told me to " bullshit, im not religious but how do you people feel when you hear this type of stuff ? im annoyed because its stupid.

I reject Jesus Christ more than any other probs because Christianity seems more accessible to where I live , I don't see many other religious circles other than Muslim and Jewish. Im from Britain btw.

Also the stories in the bibles some people claim to be true which just makes me think " how old are you ? 5 ? " the bread and fish gig is stupid and Noah's ark is a bit lame too. I know some chapters in the bible aint true.
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Old 07-17-2006, 08:47 PM   #143
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LOLz.

Us religious folk believe in a bunch of bullocks.
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Old 07-17-2006, 09:01 PM   #144
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Re: Re: What about us atheists? Where do we stand?

Quote:
Originally posted by Snowlock


My question is, why do you care then? If you don't believe, which is fine, then what difference does it make if someone lives for 20 years or 50? In the grand scheme of things, it's barely an eyeblink in the history of the universe. If we're all just wormfood anyway, why put all this effort in caring where you belong anyway. It's pretty much over before it's even begun.

Are Bush and Bin Laden, Hezbollah & Israel using religion as a mask for other motives, almost certainly to one extent or another and they're pretty complicated motives involving security, money, nationalism, and culture. But I think instead of resenting what's going on because you can't travel, you should try and develop a less self centered view. It may open you up to your own answers to the questions you ask.
Firstly, I care because I think its a pretty pathetic waste of time to fight any war, but to have a war filled with religious undertones, to have the Christinaity vs Muslim or Judaism vs Muslim continually going on, it just to me, so UTTERLY POINTLESS as both sides believe in something that is a figment of their imagination, and instead of playing that 'im right you're wrong you're going to hell blah blah' bullshit, actually work out why the hell we keep fighting for? Ok the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is obviously to do mostly with the taking of Palestian lands, but why is Lebanon involed? Why do they care so much about the Israelis? It wasn't their land they were "given". So why do they care? Because of their religion? I can see that more believiably then any other answer.

And of COURSE i care about people's lives. I feel like I live for my LIFE. I don't think about the afterlife, I don't think i'm going to heaven or hell, so you know what, my life, my lifespan is now! So why would I want people to die at 20 or 50 years when I believe is this is all you get. Have fun while the ride lasts, and hope that it lasts a long time. I think live you're life the best you know how, have fun, take time to enjoy the simple things of life, work on yourself rather then trying to convert everyone else to your views and you've lived a good life.

And lastly, yes it may be slightly self centred to be worried about travelling, but there are no selfless people in the world, and im not going to pretend i'm on of them. Obviously i'm more worried about the lives of innocent people caught up in these conflicts, but I LOVE and LIVE to travel, and it disappoints me that there are places in MY WORLD that I can't visit.


I also believe that it doesn't have to be wo factions of religious people fighting to make it a religious war. It can always be one rightous religious people trying to convert through force or "smothing effect" people who don't want their advances.
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Old 07-17-2006, 09:23 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Another FYM thread on atheism. 139 responses. I’ve perused much of the thread, but really don’t see many points presented about why atheism stands on its own. Is it really its own philosophy, or is it a rejection of religion? And if there is a rejection of religion, why is the tendency to be a rejection of Jesus Christ?
I never had the opportunity to reject Jeebus but the caricature of bitter ex-believers with issues with their parents may linger through the debate.
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I just cant believe people still believe this medieval way of thinking
Pre-medieval, much more primitive, for how could humanity stare into their existence and inevitable mortality without imbuing it with the idea of something more, our fear of death spawned it.
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Old 07-17-2006, 09:53 PM   #146
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And if there is a rejection of religion, why is the tendency to be a rejection of Jesus Christ?

well, i'd first say that it's because we are all (pretty much) Westerners, but perhaps the question should be: why does Christianity inspire so many atheists? what is it about Christ that is so off-putting that breeds such a strong reaction?

this agnostic reacts much more to Christians than to Christ, btw.

perhaps it's the messengers?
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Old 07-17-2006, 09:58 PM   #147
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Perhaps it looks more like a rejection of Jesus Christ because these people specifically rejected Christianity after growing up in it. In fact, that's exactly what I did, prior to my conversion, of course. That's why I can understand this feeling, I had some big time issues with the church I grew up in.
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Old 07-17-2006, 10:14 PM   #148
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well, i'd first say that it's because we are all (pretty much) Westerners, but perhaps the question should be: why does Christianity inspire so many atheists? what is it about Christ that is so off-putting that breeds such a strong reaction?

this agnostic reacts much more to Christians than to Christ, btw.

perhaps it's the messengers?
Well, this completely and utterly lapsed Catholic certainly has issues with religion's messengers.

I'm surprised there's been no discussion about Frisbeetariantism, U2's own religion, unless people choose to believe that frisbees don't exist.....
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Old 07-17-2006, 10:50 PM   #149
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well, i'd first say that it's because we are all (pretty much) Westerners, but perhaps the question should be: why does Christianity inspire so many atheists? what is it about Christ that is so off-putting that breeds such a strong reaction?
I'm not going to address why people hate Christians, because we've all been through that a million times. But i will address why I think people don't want to follow Christ and hate and ridicule him and his message. Here are some reasons I've thought of.

(1)This is an "independent" world. From day one, most of us are taught to stand our own, make our own way in the world, to not rely on anyone but ourselves. Society reinforces that at every turn. The Gospel is the total opposite; it's about dependence - on God. Christ wants people to rely on him. Christ says "you CAN'T do it on your own...you need me", but we have a hard time accepting that.

(2)No one wants to give up control. People want to be in control of their own lives, do exactly what they want to do. Christ's way is to let God take control. No one wants to submit to someone else's control.

(3)The world says "what's right for you may not be right for some" (sorry, I just had to quote the lyrics from the Different Strokes theme song). To the world, there is no absolute right and wrong; what's right or wrong is completely subjective. No one wants to be told he's wrong. People don't want to think of themselves as sinners. That is not how the Gospel is at all. The heart of the Gospel is Christ's love as evidenced by his scarificial death on the cross, specifically for those who are lost in sin - that is, all of us. And according to the Gospel, you cannot benefit form this sacrifice until you come to a point where you realize you are a sinner and that you can't earn your way into a relationship with God.


Everyone knows that it does bother me when people ridicule Christ and his message. However, at this point, it should not surprise me. Christ himself said that that the world would hate him, his message and his followers.
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Old 07-17-2006, 11:01 PM   #150
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It's scarce surpise that dictators can craft cults of personality when there is such an intrinsic mechanism in the human mind to surrender individuality to the mob.
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