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Old 06-12-2006, 09:13 PM   #91
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Originally posted by coemgen
Here in the newsroom where I work we have a Jew, a Mormon, an agnostic and an athiest – and I'm friends with each of them.

Nice to have a mix of friends.

so the Jew believes you can get to heaven
as a Muslim, the Mormon and others can, too.

and the Mormon believes you and the others can get to heaven (i think they believe in 3 levels)

and the agnostic admits he is not sure what happens after any of us die, no discrimination there

and the atheist says he believes you and the Jew and the Mormon believe something that is not true and when you die, that's it for all of us


but yours is the only belief that discriminates,

are my thoughts correct?
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Old 06-12-2006, 09:36 PM   #92
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
You bring so much to this place.
Thanks, I know.


You, on the other hand.... (is there a smilie for a "wet blanket"?)
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Old 06-12-2006, 09:54 PM   #93
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coemgen, you've given me a dose of philosophy, but i don't think it answers any of my very practical questions.

i still don't get how the torture and death of someone redeems everyone. his death was terrible, but ultimately unexceptional for the time period. the logic doesn't make any sense to me, the redemption thing seems to have been retrofitted to the event itself.

and i still don't see how a Hindu is damned because he happened to be born Hindu and there's no logical reason for him to switch his religion if he and his family have been Hindu for centuries.

what happened to the Ancient Egyptians when they died?
You missed a couple key element:

We are all "damned".

God told us that the only way to eliminate sin is to spill blood.

Jesus, as man and God, spilled perfect blood - thus the elimination was once and for all.

And this comes from a God who exists outside of time.

Placing your faith in logic is unnecessary - as logic does not tell you that you have an eternal problem (sin), thus you are led to believe that you don't need a solution to this problem.
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Old 06-12-2006, 09:59 PM   #94
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Originally posted by deep
but yours is the only belief that discriminates,

are my thoughts correct?
I'm not sure you understand your use of the words "yours" and "discriminates", or the theological beliefs of the others listed.

For example, Mormons don't see even other Christians as saved. Muslims will not even recognize a conversion to another religion.
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Old 06-12-2006, 10:02 PM   #95
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Placing your faith in logic is unnecessary - as logic does not tell you that you have an eternal problem (sin), thus you are led to believe that you don't need a solution to this problem.
And I didn't know how many germs were in my shower until I saw the infomercial.

Logic doesn't tell us we have an eternal problem in part because we don't neccessarily have an eternal problem.
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Old 06-12-2006, 10:07 PM   #96
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Originally posted by nbcrusader



For example, Mormons don't see even other Christians as saved.

Muslims will not even recognize a conversion to another religion.
Muslims, like Jews believe people outside of their faith can get to heaven.

Perhaps coemgen can ask his Mormon friend if he will go to hell if he is not a Mormon. It is my understanding that they do not believe that, I could be wrong.
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Old 06-12-2006, 10:12 PM   #97
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
And I didn't know how many germs were in my shower until I saw the infomercial.
Logic doesn't tell us we have an eternal problem in part because we don't neccessarily have an eternal problem.



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Old 06-12-2006, 10:14 PM   #98
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Having studied Islam, Judaism and Mormonism, all have exclusive claims to the proper route to God.

Perhaps those who identify with a religion on a cultural basis may, with reason, see an open door for more than their own.
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Old 06-12-2006, 10:16 PM   #99
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No, Jews do not have any such claim insofar as 'salvation' is concerned nor are they particularly concerned with it.

Their duty is to essentially live a life of example here on Earth. Judaism does not really delve into what happens in the afterlife.
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Old 06-12-2006, 10:25 PM   #100
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Having studied Islam, Judaism and Mormonism, all have exclusive claims to the proper route to God.
"exclusive claims to the proper route to God."

is the proper route the only route?


and do their beliefs hold that people with different beliefs will be sent to Hell? I don't think so.


do born-again evangelicals believe others that belief different than them will go to Hell?

Is this not the case?
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Old 06-12-2006, 10:29 PM   #101
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Originally posted by anitram
No, Jews do not have any such claim insofar as 'salvation' is concerned nor are they particularly concerned with it.

Their duty is to essentially live a life of example here on Earth.
sounds a lot like my own personal program

I find there are many Jewish traditions I find admirable
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Old 06-12-2006, 10:30 PM   #102
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Originally posted by deep
and do their beliefs hold that people with different beliefs will be sent to Hell? I don't think so.


do born-again evangelicals believe others that belief different than them will go to Hell?

Is this not the case?
Muslims not only believe that non-Muslims "go to hell" - but they are not even sure that they go to heaven when they die - they need to earn their place.
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Old 06-12-2006, 10:51 PM   #103
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
And I didn't know how many germs were in my shower until I saw the infomercial.

Logic doesn't tell us we have an eternal problem in part because we don't neccessarily have an eternal problem.
Or, you do. Just like the germs in your shower.
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Old 06-12-2006, 10:58 PM   #104
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Originally posted by anitram
No, Jews do not have any such claim insofar as 'salvation' is concerned nor are they particularly concerned with it.
This is not the case consistently across all forms of Judaism.

In fact, some of the core teachings of Judaism center on atonement before God.
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Old 06-13-2006, 10:40 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


You missed a couple key element:

We are all "damned".

God told us that the only way to eliminate sin is to spill blood.

Jesus, as man and God, spilled perfect blood - thus the elimination was once and for all.

And this comes from a God who exists outside of time.

Placing your faith in logic is unnecessary - as logic does not tell you that you have an eternal problem (sin), thus you are led to believe that you don't need a solution to this problem.

so what happened to the Ancient Egyptians? are they/were they all damned? modern humans have been around for at least 65,000 years -- Jesus didn't show up until 2,000 years ago. what happened to all those people? what is going to happen to people who aren't Christians (i.e, most people on earth)?

and that sounds awful -- eliminate sin through more sin? i.e., the spilling of blood?

aren't we letting God off the hook for not being terribly logical about all of this? how is sin an eternal problem? sin seems to be very much of this world -- and how can it be sin if it isn't consciously chosen? if the standard is perfection, and we know that humans aren't perfect, haven't we been set up to fuck up?

seems rather cruel to me, and seems as if life, then, here on earth, is the life that is damned if we are to go through 80+ years constantly concerned with how are sins are stacking up.
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