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coemgen said:
Here in the newsroom where I work we have a Jew, a Mormon, an agnostic and an athiest – and I'm friends with each of them.


Nice to have a mix of friends.

so the Jew believes you can get to heaven
as a Muslim, the Mormon and others can, too.

and the Mormon believes you and the others can get to heaven (i think they believe in 3 levels)

and the agnostic admits he is not sure what happens after any of us die, no discrimination there

and the atheist says he believes you and the Jew and the Mormon believe something that is not true and when you die, that's it for all of us


but yours is the only belief that discriminates,

are my thoughts correct?
 
Irvine511 said:
coemgen, you've given me a dose of philosophy, but i don't think it answers any of my very practical questions.

i still don't get how the torture and death of someone redeems everyone. his death was terrible, but ultimately unexceptional for the time period. the logic doesn't make any sense to me, the redemption thing seems to have been retrofitted to the event itself.

and i still don't see how a Hindu is damned because he happened to be born Hindu and there's no logical reason for him to switch his religion if he and his family have been Hindu for centuries.

what happened to the Ancient Egyptians when they died?

You missed a couple key element:

We are all "damned".

God told us that the only way to eliminate sin is to spill blood.

Jesus, as man and God, spilled perfect blood - thus the elimination was once and for all.

And this comes from a God who exists outside of time.

Placing your faith in logic is unnecessary - as logic does not tell you that you have an eternal problem (sin), thus you are led to believe that you don't need a solution to this problem.
 
deep said:
but yours is the only belief that discriminates,

are my thoughts correct?

I'm not sure you understand your use of the words "yours" and "discriminates", or the theological beliefs of the others listed.

For example, Mormons don't see even other Christians as saved. Muslims will not even recognize a conversion to another religion.
 
Placing your faith in logic is unnecessary - as logic does not tell you that you have an eternal problem (sin), thus you are led to believe that you don't need a solution to this problem.
And I didn't know how many germs were in my shower until I saw the infomercial.

Logic doesn't tell us we have an eternal problem in part because we don't neccessarily have an eternal problem.
 
nbcrusader said:



For example, Mormons don't see even other Christians as saved.

Muslims will not even recognize a conversion to another religion.

Muslims, like Jews believe people outside of their faith can get to heaven.

Perhaps coemgen can ask his Mormon friend if he will go to hell if he is not a Mormon. It is my understanding that they do not believe that, I could be wrong.
 
A_Wanderer said:
And I didn't know how many germs were in my shower until I saw the infomercial.
Logic doesn't tell us we have an eternal problem in part because we don't neccessarily have an eternal problem.


:laugh:

Comment of the Day
 
Having studied Islam, Judaism and Mormonism, all have exclusive claims to the proper route to God.

Perhaps those who identify with a religion on a cultural basis may, with reason, see an open door for more than their own.
 
No, Jews do not have any such claim insofar as 'salvation' is concerned nor are they particularly concerned with it.

Their duty is to essentially live a life of example here on Earth. Judaism does not really delve into what happens in the afterlife.
 
nbcrusader said:
Having studied Islam, Judaism and Mormonism, all have exclusive claims to the proper route to God.

"exclusive claims to the proper route to God."

is the proper route the only route?


and do their beliefs hold that people with different beliefs will be sent to Hell? I don't think so.


do born-again evangelicals believe others that belief different than them will go to Hell?

Is this not the case?
 
anitram said:
No, Jews do not have any such claim insofar as 'salvation' is concerned nor are they particularly concerned with it.

Their duty is to essentially live a life of example here on Earth.

sounds a lot like my own personal program

I find there are many Jewish traditions I find admirable
 
deep said:
and do their beliefs hold that people with different beliefs will be sent to Hell? I don't think so.


do born-again evangelicals believe others that belief different than them will go to Hell?

Is this not the case?

Muslims not only believe that non-Muslims "go to hell" - but they are not even sure that they go to heaven when they die - they need to earn their place.
 
A_Wanderer said:
And I didn't know how many germs were in my shower until I saw the infomercial.

Logic doesn't tell us we have an eternal problem in part because we don't neccessarily have an eternal problem.

Or, you do. Just like the germs in your shower. :wink:
 
anitram said:
No, Jews do not have any such claim insofar as 'salvation' is concerned nor are they particularly concerned with it.

This is not the case consistently across all forms of Judaism.

In fact, some of the core teachings of Judaism center on atonement before God.
 
nbcrusader said:


You missed a couple key element:

We are all "damned".

God told us that the only way to eliminate sin is to spill blood.

Jesus, as man and God, spilled perfect blood - thus the elimination was once and for all.

And this comes from a God who exists outside of time.

Placing your faith in logic is unnecessary - as logic does not tell you that you have an eternal problem (sin), thus you are led to believe that you don't need a solution to this problem.


so what happened to the Ancient Egyptians? are they/were they all damned? modern humans have been around for at least 65,000 years -- Jesus didn't show up until 2,000 years ago. what happened to all those people? what is going to happen to people who aren't Christians (i.e, most people on earth)?

and that sounds awful -- eliminate sin through more sin? i.e., the spilling of blood?

aren't we letting God off the hook for not being terribly logical about all of this? how is sin an eternal problem? sin seems to be very much of this world -- and how can it be sin if it isn't consciously chosen? if the standard is perfection, and we know that humans aren't perfect, haven't we been set up to fuck up?

seems rather cruel to me, and seems as if life, then, here on earth, is the life that is damned if we are to go through 80+ years constantly concerned with how are sins are stacking up.
 
You've got a number of good questions here.

Fist, with respect to the "ancients", I've got no specific answer to what happened to them. We can speculate on an answer based on what is clearly articulated in Scripture and what we can surmise based on the character of God as revealed in Scripture.

Second, one of the problems frequently faced when trying to describe what God ought to do is we approach the subject from the limited human experience, trying to define the actions of an all-knowing, all-powerful God. It sort of lessens the concept of God when we want to understand, discuss or demand things on an equal footing. And this is a general statement - I see it everywhere in many different forms.

Sin is an eternal problem because God is Holy - He cannot have sin in His presense. If I want to be in the presense of God forever, I've got to do something about this sin.

The whole point of Jesus as the perfect sacrifice is so that we don't have to go through 80+ years constantly concerned about how we stack up. Sins are forgiven once and for all. As we approach God in Heaven, God no longer sees our sinful self, but see's Christ's Righteousness.

Does this mean we have a free pass for sin? Not if we are to live a Godly life, allowing the Holy Spirit to work through us. I daily confess sins before God, not to ensure my place in heaven (that is guaranteed), but to remain a clean vessel that can be used by God.
 
nbcrusader said:
You've got a number of good questions here.

Fist, with respect to the "ancients", I've got no specific answer to what happened to them. We can speculate on an answer based on what is clearly articulated in Scripture and what we can surmise based on the character of God as revealed in Scripture.


What is clearly articulated in scripture? I have not read it.
 
^
Based on scriptural references (which are admittedly vague), it's surmised that during the three days when Jesus was dead, he descended into Hell to preach the gospel to those in torment.

That's one of several interpretations of those verses.
 
nathan1977 said:
^
Based on scriptural references (which are admittedly vague), it's surmised that during the three days when Jesus was dead, he descended into Hell to preach the gospel to those in torment.

That's one of several interpretations of those verses.

Yeah that's a very literal and from my understanding very minority interpretation. And given the literal interpretation of hell would be full of many contradictions...
 
This theological point is not based on a literal interpretation of one verse, but rather drawn from a collection of verses that give it strong support. 1 Peter 4:6 is a great place to start, with Acts 2:31; Ephesians 4:8-10; and 1 Peter 3:18-20 completing the picture.
 
nbcrusader said:
This theological point is not based on a literal interpretation of one verse, but rather drawn from a collection of verses that give it strong support. 1 Peter 4:6 is a great place to start, with Acts 2:31; Ephesians 4:8-10; and 1 Peter 3:18-20 completing the picture.

Here's an interesting footnote that popped up when I looked up 1 Peter 4:6
"The dead: these may be the sinners of the flood generation who are possibly referred to in 1 Peter 3:19. But many scholars think that there is no connection between these two verses, and that the dead here are Christians who have died since hearing the preaching of the gospel."

Acts 2:31 - This is referencing a psalm, that David wrote in first person about the lord saving him.

Ephesians 4:8-10 - is just Paul interpreting a Psalm that David wrote.

1 Peter 3:18-20 - This one has been debated since the beginning. There's apparently 18 major theories out there recognized by churches. Mainly because Peter quoted OT more than anything...Some use this as evidence that there is a purgatory and that "spirits in prison" referred to some intermediate state of death. Others thinks he's referring to the fallen angels of Genesis 6: 1-4.



Most of this seems to be just referencing language from the OT. No accounts of what Jesus said happened before that 3rd day.

In my mind it contradicts a lot of what people believe to a literal hell. I know a lot of people picture this sword wielding Jesus slashing through the demons and preaching to those who might just listen, but on the other hand those same people will tell you the reason those souls are in hell is because they rejected God. So why would they now accept, because it's too hot? In that case wouldn't all of hell follow? It's easy not to believe on Earth, but if you're actually living in hell and Jesus comes down and introduces himself, if anything "what's the worse that can happen?" This is why it doesn't make sense to me at all.

To me when they say he descended into hell means he was without God for 3 days.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:
In my mind it contradicts a lot of what people believe to a literal hell. I know a lot of people picture this sword wielding Jesus slashing through the demons and preaching to those who might just listen, but on the other hand those same people will tell you the reason those souls are in hell is because they rejected God. So why would they now accept, because it's too hot? In that case wouldn't all of hell follow? It's easy not to believe on Earth, but if you're actually living in hell and Jesus comes down and introduces himself, if anything "what's the worse that can happen?" This is why it doesn't make sense to me at all.

You would think that all of Hell would follow. But you have people continually rejecting a free offer of God's grace. So I am not surprised that people reject Him - even from Hell.

And I doubt Jesus has to slash through demons to preach His message.


Also, good footnotes will highlight differing interpretations. The best will support the differing interpretations with cross references to other Scriptures supporting such views.
 
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nathan1977 said:
^
Based on scriptural references (which are admittedly vague), it's surmised that during the three days when Jesus was dead, he descended into Hell to preach the gospel to those in torment.

That's one of several interpretations of those verses.


That's what LDS/Mormon Church teaches.
And therefore the billions that have never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ will have an oppurtunity there.

There are different realms of Hell/Spirit Prison and Paradise.

Makes sense to me that God is fair and just giving all of his children an oppurtunity to choose how they want to progress in the hereafter.

dbs
 
nbcrusader said:


But you have people continually rejecting a free offer of God's grace.

Maybe here on Earth. But come on you mean to tell me some choose to live in this horrible transluent fire we keep talking about? That goes against everything taught about hell.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Maybe here on Earth. But come on you mean to tell me some choose to live in this horrible transluent fire we keep talking about? That goes against everything taught about hell.

It is not a continuing offer, but one that occured at the time of Christ's incarnation, death & ressurection.

People today get their choice here on earth. And still make the choice to go it alone.
 
diamond said:

That's what LDS/Mormon Church teaches.
And therefore the billions that have never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ will have an oppurtunity there.

But what about after Christ's ascension?

diamond said:

There are different realms of Hell/Spirit Prison and Paradise.

So does this mean LDS believes in a hierarchy of sin?
 
No mystery. nathan1977 was responding to the question "what about the ancients?" (I'm not sure how it impacts the choice we make as individuals today, but it is still an interesting question).

We don't know the response to Jesus' offer then, just that it was made. We know now what happens when the offer is rejected today.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


But what about after Christ's ascension?



So does this mean LDS believes in a hierarchy of sin?

Christ did ascend unto the Father after visting Mary and his Disciples.
However while in the Spirit world during the 3 days we understand that a vast misionary program began and still exists today and will be in existence to the good and worthy souls who were good ppl here and are seeking his Gospel there.

So...every Muslim or Hindu or decent agnostic will have that oppurtunity to receive it.

As far as degrees of sin and different degrees of glory of Paradise, yes you will delegate yourself to a place you feel most comfortable in the hereafter.


But it doesn't stop there you still may progress.

Part of the a person's hell could be knowing what he should of done in this life but choose to ignore the promptings of the Holy Spirit here.

Jesus did say there are many mansions in my Father's house.

dbs
 
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