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Old 09-20-2007, 09:07 AM   #91
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Goebbels, Heidrich, Himmler or Eichmann were intelligent people, you can't deny that. Of course, total idiots in their own right, but from their IQ they wouldn't be stupid.

Hitler went nuts some time in his life. He wasn't stupid, but not highly intelligent either. But he was a very manipulating orator.

Then there is Goering... well, he was full of drugs and he was stupid, indeed.

But even people like Hjalmar Schacht, who ended the Great Inflation and was a genius in finances, fell for Hitler.
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Old 09-20-2007, 12:00 PM   #92
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thats just....disgusting.

Maybe it's just my way of thinking.....but why on earth if you actually HATE someone and are that horrible to do something like that to another human being.....why would you EVER want to have sex with them or have them perform sexual acts with or on you?????????

Doesnt that kind of go against your whole..... "I hate you and think you're dirt" thing?

uh...I'm so not saying any of this is right either...I hope I didn't come across sounding like I was saying it was right.
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Old 09-20-2007, 12:22 PM   #93
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the nature of rape isn't really to engage in a mutual sexual experience with someone. as sick as this sounds it is more to defile somebody, and penetrate them to their very core. it is an intrusion, violation, whatever word you want to use, but ultimately somebody else is in control and they are forcing themselves on the victim.
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Old 09-20-2007, 07:25 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

The Neshoba County Fair, August 3, 1980. Reagan chose that as his first, kickoff campaign stop after his nomination, and yes, he talked about being a firm believer in "states' rights" and how if elected he'd restore to state and local governments the powers which "properly belonged" to them. Monumentally cynical or monumentally insensitive--take your pick. We lived about 90 minutes northwest of there at the time...I was only nine, but I can still remember the verbal explosion that occasioned from my father when we heard about it; those murders had hit particularly close to home.

ETA: I have to say I personally never saw or heard of any officially separate drinking fountains after 1970, though it wouldn't surprise me if there were places where that was "de facto" still true.

yolland!

there's actually a little know illustration by omg just forgot his name FAMOUS reaslistic illustrator - the Four Freedoms..../ thnaksGiving fasmily pics...
well anyway, his pic of one of the grade school black girls heading for the white school for the first time with national guard protecting her.
there's actasully ANOTHER LESSER-NKOW one he did with one with i think tg\he black voter's rights student volunteer with the shadow of one of the [psoon to be] muderers aproaching him. yikes!
really. I've only seen it once.
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Old 09-20-2007, 07:32 PM   #95
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I would actually suggest an intelligent bigot is quite possible. What motivates racism is hatred, greed, and fear, all three of which are completely seperate from a person's intellectual abilities. In fact, it's the "smart" racist I find most offensive. Someone who just doesn't know any better I can understand, but often highly intelligent people are behind the most heinous examples of racism (see Nazi Germany).
the Nazis got part of their ideas about purity of race etc from the USA's eugenics movement. #disgust#
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Old 09-20-2007, 07:50 PM   #96
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Originally posted by unico


i am very sorry about what happened to your cousin, Butterscotch give my regards to your family. that is a terrible and unfair thing to go through. based on your account, it sounds to me like the man getting his car taken away committed the true crime here by coming up with a lie so he can get out of having his car taken away. was the car taken away after all? was him lying to get your cousin locked up worth it?

i can see why you are weary of "hate crime" now, but to be honest with you i don't think it is fair to then not trust when it happens to others. people get each other locked up for all sorts of other lies, not just for hate crime legislation. i'd be more inclined to direct my anger at a corrupt justice system for not getting to the bottom of this than at hate crime legislation. but then again, i'm looking on the outside in here.
Thanks. I can't figure out how it's supposed to be a 'hate' crime when it was not at all racially motivated and he never hated the guy. My cousin was repo-ing a vehicle and was attacked. Maybe he used excessive force, but it was no hate crime. His punishment of 20 years is extreme and does not fit the crime, yet I don't see thousands crusading for justice for him. And that hurts.
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Old 09-20-2007, 07:57 PM   #97
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I agree with you, I don't see how it's a hate crime. It takes more than crime + 2 different races to equal a hate crime. Even if the witnesses claimed your cousing used the N word etc the altercation arose out of a confrontation over the car; I'm sure the guy would have tried to stop your cousin from taking his car whether he was white or black, and I'd assume your cousin would have used the stick on his attacker whatever his race was.

He might be in trouble because of the stick (I'm assuming the other guy was unarmed?). But hate crime? I don't see it, unless there's more to the story (no telling what was told to the police etc).
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Old 09-20-2007, 08:10 PM   #98
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Originally posted by CTU2fan
I agree with you, I don't see how it's a hate crime. It takes more than crime + 2 different races to equal a hate crime. Even if the witnesses claimed your cousing used the N word etc the altercation arose out of a confrontation over the car; I'm sure the guy would have tried to stop your cousin from taking his car whether he was white or black, and I'd assume your cousin would have used the stick on his attacker whatever his race was.

He might be in trouble because of the stick (I'm assuming the other guy was unarmed?). But hate crime? I don't see it, unless there's more to the story (no telling what was told to the police etc).
Thank you for your understanding and support. The same thing would have happened no matter what color the guy was, it's not a hate crime. The 'witness' neighbors never even came outside until the cops pulled up after it was over backing their friend up and trying to get revenge on the repo man. They were probably also trying to make their friend look like the victim and get him off totally free since he was the one who jumped my cousin first. Did they ever wonder why my cousin would call the cops if he was about to commit a 'hate' crime?

I have heard because the federal prosecutor is involved there is no chance for him. I am not saying he should get no punishment at all, but 20 years and being labeled with a 'hate' crime is excessive and wrong. It's a terrible injustice.

I will keep you all updated on this case. Thanks for caring.
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Old 09-20-2007, 08:40 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally posted by dazzledbylight
there's actually a little know illustration by omg just forgot his name FAMOUS reaslistic illustrator - the Four Freedoms..../ thnaksGiving fasmily pics...
well anyway, his pic of one of the grade school black girls heading for the white school for the first time with national guard protecting her.
there's actasully ANOTHER LESSER-NKOW one he did with one with i think tg\he black voter's rights student volunteer with the shadow of one of the [psoon to be] muderers aproaching him. yikes!
really. I've only seen it once.
Norman Rockwell. I recall the other pictures, but not the last one you mentioned.
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Old 09-20-2007, 08:41 PM   #100
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Quote:
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Fear isn't always irrational and it's possible to make a "rational" argument for why we should fear "Them".
I've never seen one.


Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean


Racism enabled the slaveowner to keep making the big plantation bucks and still be able to sleep at night. Greed and self-deception, pure and simple.
But I guess the point I was trying to make is 'what comes first the ignorance or the greed'? Did greed motivate them to think black people are lesser human or was it the ignorance that allowed them to think this? In other words, if you were taught that the world was flat and didn't question it, then the world was flat. But let's say you weren't taught the world was flat, but it would be profitable to believe so, could you convince yourself to believe the world was flat just because it would make you money?




Quote:
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I'm sure this is not your intention, but the reason I object to your chalking it all up ignorance, is that it provides a sort of excuse for racial prejudice. It removes a certain level of responsiblity from the racist. Ignorance sometimes is the source of racism, but not always. It's not accurate to say that all racists just need to be "educated", that they are somehow "clueless" about how wrong and corrosive their hatred is. I'm willing to bet no amount of education could have cured Goebbels or Hitler. These guys made a conscious choice to hate, for the sake of their own advancement and gain. A scapegoat is a very useful thing when you have megalomaniac ambitions.
No, it wasn't my intention. I don't ever see ignorance as an excuse. When I use the term ignorance I use it to describe somone who is making a choice to ignore the truth. I believe there is a difference between being eneducated on a subject and being ignorant of a subject.
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Old 09-20-2007, 08:45 PM   #101
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Originally posted by unico
the nature of rape isn't really to engage in a mutual sexual experience with someone. as sick as this sounds it is more to defile somebody, and penetrate them to their very core. it is an intrusion, violation, whatever word you want to use, but ultimately somebody else is in control and they are forcing themselves on the victim.
Exactly. I had a health teacher who said that's the biggest misconception about rape. Rape is about showing power over someone and taking control through sex in almost every case.
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Old 09-20-2007, 10:21 PM   #102
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Thanks. I can't figure out how it's supposed to be a 'hate' crime when it was not at all racially motivated and he never hated the guy. My cousin was repo-ing a vehicle and was attacked. Maybe he used excessive force, but it was no hate crime. His punishment of 20 years is extreme and does not fit the crime, yet I don't see thousands crusading for justice for him. And that hurts.
maybe because people don't know about it? i didn't hear about this until you said something. you should start by making a web site, and then try contacting some media. i'm sure it will grow attention if the word was spread out.
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Old 09-20-2007, 10:35 PM   #103
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Originally posted by Butterscotch


Thanks. I can't figure out how it's supposed to be a 'hate' crime when it was not at all racially motivated and he never hated the guy. My cousin was repo-ing a vehicle and was attacked. Maybe he used excessive force, but it was no hate crime. His punishment of 20 years is extreme and does not fit the crime, yet I don't see thousands crusading for justice for him. And that hurts.
Well unfortunately your cousin has a lot of evidence(be it factual or not) against him.
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Old 09-20-2007, 11:27 PM   #104
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^ The way Butterscotch described it though, it's difficult to see how there would be evidence indicating a hate crime charge specifically. Especially a federal hate crime charge, where they have to show that one of a small number of federally protected benefits was interfered with, and that that was the intent of the crime--I can't imagine what the benefit(s) in question would be. And even with a state hate crime charge, as CTU2 fan pointed out, the mere "fact" that e.g. racial or homophobic epithets are uttered while committing the "primary" crime does not constitute grounds for hate crime charges (there was actually a Supreme Court case which resolved that; Wisconsin v. Mitchell, 1993). Now if the prosecution could show beyond a reasonable doubt that racism was the precipitating factor in committing the crime itself, that's different--but if you were a cop, wouldn't you find it a bit suspicious that a man who was present at the crime scene in order to repossess a car, as required by his job (not hard to prove), supposedly just happened to unprovokedly attack the car's owner purely out of racism while he was there?

Butterscotch is wrong about one thing though, it has nothing to do with whether the criminal "hates" the victim in general. What hate crime laws seek to punish is criminal conduct motivated by hatred of the victim insofar as s/he belongs to a protected class (e.g. ANY race, religion, nationality, gender or sexual orientation)...not hateful feelings or beliefs themselves, which are protected by the First Amendment. Because, such crimes are more likely to stir broad community unrest, provoke retaliatory acts, and intimidate other members of that protected class. That's why racism would have to be shown to be the precipitating factor.
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Old 09-21-2007, 01:04 AM   #105
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All I was saying is that the witness backing racial slurs(truth or not), the fractured skull, and the fact that he isn't allowed to carry a weapon is very damning evidence.
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