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Old 09-17-2007, 09:31 AM   #76
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Originally posted by Butterscotch
I didn't want to bring this up, but I want to know what you think of what happened to my cousin. He is a 29 year old guy who has black friends, always loved rap, hiphop and dresses ghetto and is the farthest thing from racist. He is also an unwed dad of 3 kids by 3 different girls he owed child support for and he had no job. In desperation he took a job with a car repo company that dealt with shady car dealers and most of their repos were in the 'hood.' He was told by his boss to take a weapon in case someone got mad at him, that some of their drivers were even shot at. He thought he could handle it and took a nightstick. On new year's eve he was repo-ing a car when this black dude comes out of the house and starts screaming for him to stop. My cousin said I'm sorry but you didn't pay and it's my job and continued to hook up the car to the towtruck. Then the black guy comes out and lays in front of the car and begs him not to take it. My cousin discreetly dialed 911 on his cell and continued to hook up the car. Then the black guy jumps him from behind, getting him in a headlock and choking him and threatening how he'll hurt him if he takes the car. So my cousin pulled out the nightstick and started fighting the guy off and the more the guy punched the harder he pounded with the nightstick. In the fight they were both bloody but the black guy's skull got cracked. Just then the cops pulled up, and the black guy started yelling that my cousin called him the n word and attacked him for no other reason than being black. 2 of his neighbors came out and backed him up. The cops who were both white had no choice but to listen to the black guys over the white one or get called racist. So they arrested my cousin and he spent New years in jail because there was no magistrate on duty. He was charged with malicious wounding, but also a 'hate' crime. With no prior record he might have gotten off on a couple years even probation, but because of the hate crime the federal prosecutor came in and he got 20 years in prison even though it was self defense and nothing to do with the color of the guy. he is out on appeal now but it doesn't look good for him. So you can see why I question these things as unfair sometimes.
i am very sorry about what happened to your cousin, Butterscotch give my regards to your family. that is a terrible and unfair thing to go through. based on your account, it sounds to me like the man getting his car taken away committed the true crime here by coming up with a lie so he can get out of having his car taken away. was the car taken away after all? was him lying to get your cousin locked up worth it?

i can see why you are weary of "hate crime" now, but to be honest with you i don't think it is fair to then not trust when it happens to others. people get each other locked up for all sorts of other lies, not just for hate crime legislation. i'd be more inclined to direct my anger at a corrupt justice system for not getting to the bottom of this than at hate crime legislation. but then again, i'm looking on the outside in here.
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Old 09-17-2007, 12:21 PM   #77
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It doesn't sound like grounds for a federal hate crime charge...what was the federally protected service they argued your cousin interfered with? Or was it a state hate crime charge and if so, which state was it?
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Old 09-18-2007, 11:14 AM   #78
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Originally posted by Sherry Darling
As a bit of related "positive news", this was a fun article about a clever and creative counter-demonstration against a KKK rally.

http://asheville.indymedia.org/article/107Clowns
Normally I'm not keen on clowns, but I definitely make an exception in this case. "Mock the devil and he'll flee from you."

Thanks for posting this link! Go Clowns!
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Old 09-18-2007, 01:24 PM   #79
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^ No doubt.

The KKK

I wonder if they know or care what idiots they are. Ever met/heard of an intelligent bigot? I have met the occasional pseudo-intellectual neo-Nazi I'm sorry to say, they'll cite all sorts of bogus data on the superiority of the white race that they've gathered from various propoganda sites. I like how the Aryan types capitalize White...you'll stumble across one of their online rantings about black vs. jew vs. White people.
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Old 09-19-2007, 01:15 AM   #80
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Originally posted by RedrocksU2
And this is why I believe in the death penalty. For these animals and child molesters.

I would just put a bullet in their heads.

i don't beleive in the death penalty...but there are "shining" examples that TEST my belief!
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Old 09-19-2007, 01:21 AM   #81
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Originally posted by dazzlingamy
I don't think satanism is the right call. There are plenty of 'good christians' doing the most awfullest of things, but still pray at night and go to confession etc.
Plus there are people who don't believe in sweat f a when it comes to religion, that also do the worst things. It comes down to the person, their personality, and any mental illnesses if there are any apparent.

this is so horrendous, i am truly shocked.
please rember most people lving with mental illness are not violent people.......
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Old 09-19-2007, 02:06 AM   #82
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So there were a few more charges filed today, basically expansions of already-existing ones.
Quote:
Charges upgraded for 5 of 6 suspects

By Andrew Clevenger
Charleston Gazette, September 19


LOGAN, WV — Prosecutors upgraded charges on Tuesday against five of the six suspects accused of torturing and sexually abusing a 20-year-old Charleston woman in Logan County. Each of the six defendants now faces accusations of first-degree sexual assault and kidnapping, which carry maximum terms of 35 years and life in prison, respectively, among other charges. Logan County prosecutor Brian Abraham dismissed the previous charges against five suspects, and immediately filed new criminal complaints against each suspect.

The charges against Bobby Ray Brewster, 24, which also include malicious wounding and assault during the commission of a felony, remained unchanged.

Initially, only Brewster and his mother, 49-year-old Frankie Lee Brewster, were accused of kidnapping Megan Williams. Williams told authorities she was sexually assaulted, stabbed, choked and beaten during the time she was involuntarily held at the Brewster’s Big Creek home.

Frankie Brewster now stands accused of kidnapping, first-degree sexual assault, three counts of battery and giving false information to authorities during a felony investigation. Karen Burton, 46, also faces malicious wounding assault during the commission of a felony and 13 counts of battery, while her 22-year-old daughter Alisha Burton’s charges include malicious wounding and 11 counts of battery.

Danny Jay Combs, 20, now stands accused of three counts of first-degree sexual assault, kidnapping and malicious wounding. George Allen Messer, 27, is also charged with six counts of battery.

At Frankie Brewster’s preliminary hearing on Tuesday, Logan County Sheriff’s Deputy J.S. Robinette said investigators now believe Williams was at the remote trailer from Aug. 2 until Sept. 8...Aug. 2, Robinette said, is when Bobby Brewster was released from jail after his July 18 arrest on domestic battery charges in which Williams was the alleged victim.

Williams went to the trailer of her own free will, he said, but eventually she spent days locked in an outbuilding next to the trailer. According to a statement Williams gave deputies from her hospital bed, her alleged captors threatened to beat her and set the shed on fire with her in it if she tried to leave, Robinette said.
..........................................................................
Williams’ parents and sister attended the hearing. During Goodman’s testimony, Carmen Williams, the victim’s mother, became visibly upset and left the courtroom.

As he was guiding Brewster into magistrate court to be arraigned, she said she wanted to come clean, and gave another statement detailing her involvement, Goodman said. “Bobby said he would put a bag over her head and hang her from a tree if she tried to leave,” Goodman said, his voice faltering as he read from Brewster’s statement.

Logan County Magistrate Jeffrey Lane found there was probable cause to support the felony charges against Frankie Brewster, and bound the matter over to the grand jury.

When Lane arraigned Combs, both Burtons and Messer on the new charges, each of them requested a preliminary hearing in magistrate court. The Burtons and Messer were arraigned by video from the Southwestern Regional Jail. The preliminary hearings have not yet been scheduled, and it may be some time before they happen because several defendants have asked two of the county’s three magistrates to be recused because of comments attributed to them in the Logan Banner newspaper.

Informed of the new kidnapping charge against her, Karen Burton sounded defiant. “You ain’t getting me for no kidnapping,” she said. In response to the sexual assault charge, Burton snapped, “Oh, hell no,” before her attorney, Betty Gregory, reminded her not to say anything.

Alisha Burton sobbed as Lane read the new charges to her. Combs and Messer remained impassive, giving simple yes and no answers to the magistrate’s questions.
Apparently they're also having difficulties finding public defenders for all the accused, as they already have lengthy enough criminal histories between the six of them that otherwise available lawyers keep having to recuse themselves on account of having represented them previously.

I'm thinking of having someone from the law school address my comparative government class about hate crime laws around the world, with particular emphasis on the US...following this case has really brought home to me how much confusion, as well as controversy, there is out there about what exactly the philosophy behind hate crime laws is, and how they do and don't work in practice.
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Old 09-19-2007, 02:07 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy

It also shows that no matter how far we think we're taking in steps away from racism, its still there - on both sides. Perhaps we'll never be able to stop both sides from hating each other. I mean nooses in a tree is wrong, and offensive, but its not relevent in this day and age
Partly growing up in The 60's" in NYC .........amy........how people tended to talk about it then that there was racism and Instituationized Racism by whites against blacks [usually the mostvirulent] , Latinos, Asians, & Native Americans.

How black people tend to see it is......they can be predujiced agasinst whites but not rascist. I can kind of understand that being black people were forcecibly removed from there native african countries, made slaves of, then subjected to outright Jim Crowism in The South when the era of slavery was over -seperate hotels, hospitals, bathrooms, water fountains etc, plus the phyiscal violence of the KKK, White Citizens Council, Jim Birch Society etc. It was white people who did this.
[not that there hasn't been other types of slavery- in fact i heard once long time ago...and should google it up sometime that the word Slavs (slavic-speaking peoples) meant slaves in some Northern European language.


Oh yeah, plus p-ractically being ? indentured servents in the vast amount of cotton fields dowen in the South.....once slavery was gone.

Eventually I think.....that was one of the big reasons alot of African-Amercians went North-- NYC, Boston, Philly, DC, Detroit, Chicago .... thinkjing it would be better.........

It was AND it wasn't .
Out right rascism was somesomes there. Often it was more like "subtler" insitutionalism rasicm.

Even today............ 2 yrs ago The NYTimes sent black & white people SEPERATLEy for house-hunting/condos etc with EXACTLY same inhcome, jobs etyc...and WAY more than not the black people were STILL Turned Down.

there was a reccent study showing a white man with some kind of crime record would still be able to get a job easier than a black person W/O a criminal record.

I met a black woman from the deep south about 8 yrs ago.she'd came up North to get some better health care...............

She'd worked in a hospital and she said a lot of the black people were still intimidated to always look their white superiors in the eye when disagreeing with them.
She had to learn up here to be able to look at the part of the white medical team straight in the eye.
She ALSO said in the smaller farther away places from the cities.....there were like, still separate dsrinking fountains fer chirst's sake!

The was like 1998 !!!

as you can see DA, racism in it's various forms still exists too much in America.....

as a white person i was b/c of my parents racism-free until my mid-thirties. you could say they "inoculated" me quite well from the time i was around 8 yrs. Unforntuantley, i did hear the other type of talk was always to say something agasinst it, and it must of snuck inside and lay dormant for 25 yrs. It came out AFTER I lost one of my deepest childhood {& onwards} dream.

I thought i had to "be an adult" [the loss] about it.........they didn't know THAT much about greiving then EVEN for lost dreams.....I hardly said a thing to anyone about it.
I beleive that sadness & hidden anger began to manifest as rascism [tho for a while i was very arrogantly nasty in my mind agaisnt alot of people]......like scape-goating those lower on the "pecking order".

and while i have only my responsiblity to take for it.....i just thot about it............it came out in 83- 84. this was under Ronald Reagan's Presidency.

And HE was NOT a strong presidnet against racism.
In fact - tho i only learned it like 15 yrs later or so.....
......he kicked off one of his major campaign starts in i think......

....Philidelphia, Mississsippi .....
....it didn't ring my bell when i heard the name......
He was talking about "states rights" [usually in the South esp a codeword for the "good ole Jim Crow days"] so WHAT was it?

It was where those 3 civil rights workers were mudered by white rascists while trying to bring voting rights to black people in South.

Coincidence?

so i have to continue to note when i think[not too often] things that aredisgusting, throw up the #warning sign# get a grip, and come out of it.
Part of working on being a better Humam Being! I am almost sure as {I hope /:Pray:} my life impproves again such thoughts will diminish, or dissapear again.


ANYway
....hnaging a fucking noose under those white & black conditions is no way a innocent prank..those lille monsters got off waaaayyy too easy.........


and yolland you had a very good post about those "hillbilly's.
ALSO---just keep on slashing those budgets for health ( physcical/ mental/pre-natal etc) care, good drug-treatment programs and that's part of the reason you end up with people like that.


I will have to read more of this thread on another day to totally follow the time line of events for the Jeno 6....... it waaaaaay past the time I should of been home {2am :EEK: for when I have to get up tomorrow, and what I have to do when i get home. But at least it had me concentrating on someother's people problems than worrying about my eye exaim tomorrow for a few hours!
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Old 09-19-2007, 03:56 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by dazzledbylight
this was under Ronald Reagan's Presidency.

And HE was NOT a strong presidnet against racism.
In fact - tho i only learned it like 15 yrs later or so.....
......he kicked off one of his major campaign starts in i think......

....Philidelphia, Mississsippi .....
....it didn't ring my bell when i heard the name......
He was talking about "states rights" [usually in the South esp a codeword for the "good ole Jim Crow days"] so WHAT was it?

It was where those 3 civil rights workers were mudered by white rascists while trying to bring voting rights to black people in South.

Coincidence?
The Neshoba County Fair, August 3, 1980. Reagan chose that as his first, kickoff campaign stop after his nomination, and yes, he talked about being a firm believer in "states' rights" and how if elected he'd restore to state and local governments the powers which "properly belonged" to them. Monumentally cynical or monumentally insensitive--take your pick. We lived about 90 minutes northwest of there at the time...I was only nine, but I can still remember the verbal explosion that occasioned from my father when we heard about it; those murders had hit particularly close to home.

ETA: I have to say I personally never saw or heard of any officially separate drinking fountains after 1970, though it wouldn't surprise me if there were places where that was "de facto" still true.
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Old 09-19-2007, 05:32 AM   #85
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Originally posted by CTU2fan
^ No doubt.



I wonder if they know or care what idiots they are. Ever met/heard of an intelligent bigot?
I would actually suggest an intelligent bigot is quite possible. What motivates racism is hatred, greed, and fear, all three of which are completely seperate from a person's intellectual abilities. In fact, it's the "smart" racist I find most offensive. Someone who just doesn't know any better I can understand, but often highly intelligent people are behind the most heinous examples of racism (see Nazi Germany).
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Old 09-19-2007, 08:22 AM   #86
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Originally posted by maycocksean


What motivates racism is hatred, greed, and fear, all three of which are completely seperate from a person's intellectual abilities.
I wouldn't say fear falls into your "intellectual" bigot argument. Fear would be irrational therefore ignorant.

Hate can strike people of all IQ levels. But blind hatred towards groups based on sex, religion, or color of skin can't be argued on an intelligent level.

Not sure how greed fits into racism, I would say a truly greety person puts him or herself above everyone and race really wouldn't matter.

I think it all comes down to ignorance, and depending on how you measure intelligence, it doesn't make you ammune to ignorance.
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Old 09-20-2007, 01:47 AM   #87
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^ Greed can be a factor in cases such as the Atlantic slave trade and the plantation system it supported, for example.

Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
often highly intelligent people are behind the most heinous examples of racism (see Nazi Germany).
Or several of the "Founding Fathers"...



Latest update on the WV case--
Quote:
Victim Tells Police of Possible Motive for Abduction

By IAN URBINA
New York Times, September 20, 2007


The authorities provided new details yesterday of the ordeal and a possible motive in the case of the 20-year old West Virginia woman who they say was raped and tortured at a ramshackle trailer about 30 miles south of Charleston. In an interview with the police at the hospital after her rescue on Sept. 8, the victim said she believed that Bobby Ray Brewster, 24, with whom she had a romantic relationship, thought that she had led the police to seek an arrest warrant for his mother, Frankie Lee Brewster, 49.

“He said I had put a warrant out on his mom,” the victim told the police, who then asked what type of warrant Mr. Brewster believed had been issued. “Attempted murder,” the victim said, adding that she had not, in fact, gone to the police. Mr. Brewster and his mother are among six people charged in the case.

The victim, who was in court on Tuesday to face charges of writing bad checks, described in the police interview being tied up with duct tape in a shed, being forced to eat animal and human feces and being guarded and kept away from the telephone to prevent her from calling for help. “He was drinking a fifth of liquor that he stole from 7-Eleven,” the victim said, describing one of Mr. Brewster’s fits of rage, during which he reached onto the trailer’s roof and grabbed a butcher knife. “I tried to get away but he charged at me,” she said, adding that she passed out while Mr. Brewster kicked her in the head. When she woke up, she had five stab wounds in her leg and was lying in a pool of blood on the trailer’s bathroom floor, she said. Mr. Brewster then came into the bathroom and forced her to lick her blood, she said.

In a preliminary hearing on Tuesday, a Logan County deputy sheriff, J. S. Robinette, said investigators now believed that the victim went to the remote trailer willingly on Aug. 2. At some point after Aug. 2, although the police are not clear when, the victim began being held against her will and was threatened with death if she tried to leave, the deputy said. Aug. 2 was the day Mr. Brewster was released from jail after being arrested on July 18 on charges of domestic battery in an incident also involving the kidnapping victim, the police said.

The Logan County prosecutor, Brian Abraham, said he was not sure what role, if any, Mr. Brewster had on Aug. 2 when two people picked up the victim in Charleston and took her to the trailer. But as a result of new testimony and evidence, Mr. Abraham said, he was upgrading the charges against the defendants. All six now face charges of first-degree sexual assault and kidnapping, which carry maximum terms of 35 years and life in prison, among other charges.

In a statement taken by the police soon after she was arrested, Ms. Brewster said that she had seen a defendant, Danny Jay Combs, 20, sexually assault the victim in the bathroom while holding a knife to her throat. He then pointed the knife at Ms. Brewster, and told her it was none of her business, and, “to get gone or he was going to kill me,” Ms. Brewster’s statement said.

The six defendants are white and although the victim told the police that her captors said they were torturing her because she is black, the federal authorities decided not to press charges of hate crimes.

In a separate courtroom, the victim appeared at her own hearing. Seated with her parents and her sister, a sling on her arm and clutching a stuffed bear, the victim faced charges of writing bad checks in three counties. She was released on $8,000 bond.
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Old 09-20-2007, 02:51 AM   #88
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^ Greed can be a factor in cases such as the Atlantic slave trade and the plantation system it supported, for example.
But my point was if it was purely greed driven would race have mattered? If they could have found white slaves for cheaper, they would have taken them...

Right?
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Old 09-20-2007, 03:27 AM   #89
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I understand your point (I think), and I wasn't suggesting it was "purely" greed-driven, but it's questionable whether they could have found white slaves "for cheaper"--more like with fewer military, diplomatic and political consequences--by that point in time (though I can think of at least one instance, the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland, in which thousands of Irish people were sold into slavery in the West Indies; however, many historians would question whether "fellow white people" is at all a perception that could meaningfully be ascribed to English views of Irish people at the time--"black" and "white" are not timeless constructs). Initially, Native Americans provided the bulk of the slave population in the New World; however, disease, wars, and the growing need for peaceable relations with native peoples caused the imperial powers to look elsewhere. West and Central Africa were relatively close by, were not controlled by any one formidably powerful empire, and had existing slave trade networks of their own for the European powers to tap into and, ultimately, exploit.

...or do you see ignorance as a better explanation for the above?
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Old 09-20-2007, 03:59 AM   #90
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I wouldn't say fear falls into your "intellectual" bigot argument. Fear would be irrational therefore ignorant.
Fear isn't always irrational and it's possible to make a "rational" argument for why we should fear "Them".


Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Not sure how greed fits into racism, I would say a truly greety person puts him or herself above everyone and race really wouldn't matter.
Yolland already explained what I was thinking of in reference to "greed." And I would argue that the type of racism that developed in early history of the Americas was in large part a product of "pure" greed. It was important for blacks to somehow less than whites--it was the only way slaveowners could justify enslaving one particular group over another (there were a variety of "real" reasons for focusing on black Africans for slave labor, several of which Yolland mentioned in her post, but none could be justified morally). Racism enabled the slaveowner to keep making the big plantation bucks and still be able to sleep at night. Greed and self-deception, pure and simple.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
I think it all comes down to ignorance, and depending on how you measure intelligence, it doesn't make you ammune to ignorance.
I'm sure this is not your intention, but the reason I object to your chalking it all up ignorance, is that it provides a sort of excuse for racial prejudice. It removes a certain level of responsiblity from the racist. Ignorance sometimes is the source of racism, but not always. It's not accurate to say that all racists just need to be "educated", that they are somehow "clueless" about how wrong and corrosive their hatred is. I'm willing to bet no amount of education could have cured Goebbels or Hitler. These guys made a conscious choice to hate, for the sake of their own advancement and gain. A scapegoat is a very useful thing when you have megalomaniac ambitions.
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