Well how could you have a secure boarder with out a wall of some sorts. When I said stupid I was doing it from a character point of view. Ok so bring the troops home then and let them set up on our side of the boarder.
Well Mexico is Pissed with The US
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U2DMfan
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BrownEyedBoy said:
And then gringos wonder why there is such resentment against them.
So is that the derogatory "gringo" or just a casual "gringo"?
The Cost of Illegal Immigration
http://www.kpho.com/Global/story.aspS=2537000&nav=DIH7Ssy8
Every day as many as 4,000 illegal immigrants cross the border into Arizona, and you pay for it in ways you might not even think.
The 5 i-Team's Chris Hayes broke down the numbers to see just how much of the tab you're picking up.
Every minute, at least one immigrant crosses the border into Arizona.
They're coming here for a new life, and while most might be looking for better jobs here, many are also finding benefits we all pay for.
Small business owner Velia Guethe said, "I think about the hospitals and the schooling."
Guethe just opened a small coffee shop in Guadalupe called Coffee De Mexico.
Guadalupe is a small town of just one square mile -- located between Phoenix and Tempe, at the base of South Mountain.
Guethe told us she understands Mexican immigrants are just doing what's best for their families, but she worries about the expense.
"I do want them to help us with the burden cost of all these expensive things."
Like health care.
John Rivers of the Arizona Hospital and Healthcare Association told us, "This is a problem for every hospital in Arizona."
At Senator Jon Kyle's request, his organization calculated the cost to Arizona hospitals for treating illegal immigrants at 31 million dollars in just one year.
That $31 million would pay for more than the cost of a new trauma center here in the valley.
And Rivers said the expense could be much more.
"That's a bare minimum number. The truth is, nobody knows what the number is, I mean we can estimate, but frankly it's not much more than a wild guess."
Lupita Martinez is a valley restaurant owner who thinks about the costs often.
But she says she also may benefit from illegal immigration.
She suspects illegal workers are the only ones willing to accept her starting pay of $8 dollars an hour.
She demands legal documentation, but she thinks many workers can easily get fake documents -- just as they would do to apply for Welfare.
And according to the Center for Immigration Studies, Welfare payments, including food stamps to Illegal immigrants in Arizona cost us $4,698,000 in 2001.
That's enough to put away more than 250 prisoners for a full year.
There's another expense you've probably never imagined.
Tucked behind a familiar stretch of I-10, and right across from one of Phoenix's most popular resorts is an indigent burial ground.
Many of the grave sites are marked John Doe or Jane Doe.
They're likely illegal immigrants who died shortly after coming to the United States.
In the last five years Maricopa County alone has buried 100 unidentified people at an estimated cost of more than $197,000. That's enough to pay the five year salary for any one of the more than twenty Maricopa County jobs now open.
Immigrants say they pick up some of the costs themselves.
The 5i-Team attended an English class in which more than 20 immigrants attended.
The students told us they were restaurant employees, mechanics and other low wage workers.
From their perspective, they pay taxes and many times can't take advantage of the services.
They say they can prove we can't afford life without them.
E-mail Chris Hayes.
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/19_56_5812_5_04.txt
Comment(s)
Visit our news blogs at blog.nctimes.com.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cost of illegal immigration in California estimated at nearly $9 billion
By: EDWARD SIFUENTES - Staff Writer
California's nearly 3 million illegal immigrants cost taxpayers nearly $9 billion each year, according to a new report released last week by the Federation for American Immigration Reform, a Washington, D.C.-based group that promotes stricter immigration policies.
Educating the children of illegal immigrants is the largest cost, estimated at $7.7 billion each year, according to the report. Medical care for illegal immigrants and incarceration of those who have committed crimes are the next two largest expenses measured in the study, the author said.
Pro-immigrant groups and Latino researchers dispute the federation's findings, calling them biased and incomplete.
Jack Martin, who wrote the report, said Thursday that the $9 billion figure does not include other expenses that are difficult to measure, such as special English instruction, school lunch programs, and welfare benefits for American workers displaced by illegal immigrant workers.
"It's a bottom of the range number," Martin said.
The federation is one of the nation's leading lobbying groups aimed at curbing immigration into the country.
Authors of the report say it culls information from the U.S. Census and other studies addressing the cost of illegal immigration into the country to draw its conclusions.
Gerardo Gonzalez, director of Cal State San Marcos' National Latino Research Center, which compiles data on Latinos, criticized the report. He said it does not measure some of the contributions that immigrants make to the state's economy.
"Beyond taxes, these workers' production and spending contribute to California's economy, especially the agricultural sector," Gonzalez said.
Immigrants, both legal and illegal, are the backbone of the state's nearly $28 billion-a-year agricultural industry, Gonzalez and other researchers say.
More than two-thirds of the estimated 340,000 agriculture workers in California are noncitizens, most of whom are believed to be illegal immigrants, according to a 1998 study on farmworkers prepared for the state Legislature.
Local farmers say migrant farmworkers are critical to their businesses, and without them they would have to close their farms or move their operations overseas.
Martin disagrees. He said illegal immigrants displace American workers by taking low-skilled jobs, keep wages low by creating an overabundance of workers and stifle innovation by reducing the need for mechanized labor.
"The product of the illegal immigrant is not included (in the report) because if that is an essential product it will get done one way or another," Martin said. Employers "would have to pay better wages or invest money on mechanization."
Martin's study looks specifically at the costs of educating illegal immigrants' children, providing medical care to illegal immigrants and jailing those convicted of committing crimes. The report estimates the total cost at $10.5 billion each year, but that is offset by about $1.7 billion in taxes that illegal immigrants pay.
The study assumes that there are about 1 million children of illegal immigrant parents in California, or about 15 percent of the state's K-12 school enrolled population. The estimate is based on a 1994 study by the Urban Institute that concluded there were 307,000 illegal immigrant children enrolled in the state's public schools.
Martin also added an estimate of 597,000 U.S.-born children whose parents are illegal immigrants arriving at a total of 1,022,000 children. Multiplying the number of children by the estimated $7,577 the state spends on average per pupil, the study arrived at the $7.7 billion figure.
Including the number of U.S.-born children in the study is one of the reasons pro-immigrant groups said the study is biased.
"I think FAIR is without doubt an extremist organization that tries to portray itself as a mainstream group," said Christian Ramirez, director of the San Diego office of the American Friends Service Committee, an advocate group for legal and illegal immigrants.
The study's author defended the report, saying that the children were born in the United States as a result of their parents' illegal entry into the country.
"In no way does the report identify them as different kinds of citizens, because they would not have been born in the U.S. had their parents not come into the country illegally," Martin said.
To arrive at the cost of providing health care to illegal immigrants, the federation's study used an earlier 2000 analysis of health expenses paid by border counties that concluded the state spent $908 million on medical care for immigrants.
Martin said he adjusted the 2000 figure for increases in the population and inflation on the cost of providing health care and estimated that the state will spend about $1.4 billion in 2004.
The report also estimated that the state will spend another $1.4 billion to jail the 48,000 illegal immigrants in state prisons. California is compensated by the federal government to offset the cost of housing this population, but the federal payments were a fraction, about $111 million, of the total cost, Martin said.
To figure out the contributions that this immigrant population makes in taxes, the federation's study said it adjusted the Urban Institute's study estimates of $732 million for population increases and concluded that they contribute about $1.7 billion in sales, income and property taxes.
A similar study conducted by the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, D.C., and released in August, said that illegal immigrants cost the federal government $10 billion more than they pay in taxes.
The federal government pays about $2.2 billion in medical treatment for uninsured immigrants, according to the report. It pays $1.9 billion in food assistance programs, such as food stamps and school lunches, for low-income families. And it pays $1.4 billion in aid to schools that educate illegal immigrant children.
Martin said states bear most of the cost of illegal immigration.
"State costs are much higher on a per capita basis because of the fact that the largest expenses are medical care and education and those are borne at the local level, not the federal," Martin said.
The federation's full report is at: www.fairus.org.
Contact staff writer Edward Sifuentes at (760) 740-5426 or esifuentes@nctimes.com.
http://www.kpho.com/Global/story.aspS=2537000&nav=DIH7Ssy8
Every day as many as 4,000 illegal immigrants cross the border into Arizona, and you pay for it in ways you might not even think.
The 5 i-Team's Chris Hayes broke down the numbers to see just how much of the tab you're picking up.
Every minute, at least one immigrant crosses the border into Arizona.
They're coming here for a new life, and while most might be looking for better jobs here, many are also finding benefits we all pay for.
Small business owner Velia Guethe said, "I think about the hospitals and the schooling."
Guethe just opened a small coffee shop in Guadalupe called Coffee De Mexico.
Guadalupe is a small town of just one square mile -- located between Phoenix and Tempe, at the base of South Mountain.
Guethe told us she understands Mexican immigrants are just doing what's best for their families, but she worries about the expense.
"I do want them to help us with the burden cost of all these expensive things."
Like health care.
John Rivers of the Arizona Hospital and Healthcare Association told us, "This is a problem for every hospital in Arizona."
At Senator Jon Kyle's request, his organization calculated the cost to Arizona hospitals for treating illegal immigrants at 31 million dollars in just one year.
That $31 million would pay for more than the cost of a new trauma center here in the valley.
And Rivers said the expense could be much more.
"That's a bare minimum number. The truth is, nobody knows what the number is, I mean we can estimate, but frankly it's not much more than a wild guess."
Lupita Martinez is a valley restaurant owner who thinks about the costs often.
But she says she also may benefit from illegal immigration.
She suspects illegal workers are the only ones willing to accept her starting pay of $8 dollars an hour.
She demands legal documentation, but she thinks many workers can easily get fake documents -- just as they would do to apply for Welfare.
And according to the Center for Immigration Studies, Welfare payments, including food stamps to Illegal immigrants in Arizona cost us $4,698,000 in 2001.
That's enough to put away more than 250 prisoners for a full year.
There's another expense you've probably never imagined.
Tucked behind a familiar stretch of I-10, and right across from one of Phoenix's most popular resorts is an indigent burial ground.
Many of the grave sites are marked John Doe or Jane Doe.
They're likely illegal immigrants who died shortly after coming to the United States.
In the last five years Maricopa County alone has buried 100 unidentified people at an estimated cost of more than $197,000. That's enough to pay the five year salary for any one of the more than twenty Maricopa County jobs now open.
Immigrants say they pick up some of the costs themselves.
The 5i-Team attended an English class in which more than 20 immigrants attended.
The students told us they were restaurant employees, mechanics and other low wage workers.
From their perspective, they pay taxes and many times can't take advantage of the services.
They say they can prove we can't afford life without them.
E-mail Chris Hayes.
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/19_56_5812_5_04.txt
Comment(s)
Visit our news blogs at blog.nctimes.com.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cost of illegal immigration in California estimated at nearly $9 billion
By: EDWARD SIFUENTES - Staff Writer
California's nearly 3 million illegal immigrants cost taxpayers nearly $9 billion each year, according to a new report released last week by the Federation for American Immigration Reform, a Washington, D.C.-based group that promotes stricter immigration policies.
Educating the children of illegal immigrants is the largest cost, estimated at $7.7 billion each year, according to the report. Medical care for illegal immigrants and incarceration of those who have committed crimes are the next two largest expenses measured in the study, the author said.
Pro-immigrant groups and Latino researchers dispute the federation's findings, calling them biased and incomplete.
Jack Martin, who wrote the report, said Thursday that the $9 billion figure does not include other expenses that are difficult to measure, such as special English instruction, school lunch programs, and welfare benefits for American workers displaced by illegal immigrant workers.
"It's a bottom of the range number," Martin said.
The federation is one of the nation's leading lobbying groups aimed at curbing immigration into the country.
Authors of the report say it culls information from the U.S. Census and other studies addressing the cost of illegal immigration into the country to draw its conclusions.
Gerardo Gonzalez, director of Cal State San Marcos' National Latino Research Center, which compiles data on Latinos, criticized the report. He said it does not measure some of the contributions that immigrants make to the state's economy.
"Beyond taxes, these workers' production and spending contribute to California's economy, especially the agricultural sector," Gonzalez said.
Immigrants, both legal and illegal, are the backbone of the state's nearly $28 billion-a-year agricultural industry, Gonzalez and other researchers say.
More than two-thirds of the estimated 340,000 agriculture workers in California are noncitizens, most of whom are believed to be illegal immigrants, according to a 1998 study on farmworkers prepared for the state Legislature.
Local farmers say migrant farmworkers are critical to their businesses, and without them they would have to close their farms or move their operations overseas.
Martin disagrees. He said illegal immigrants displace American workers by taking low-skilled jobs, keep wages low by creating an overabundance of workers and stifle innovation by reducing the need for mechanized labor.
"The product of the illegal immigrant is not included (in the report) because if that is an essential product it will get done one way or another," Martin said. Employers "would have to pay better wages or invest money on mechanization."
Martin's study looks specifically at the costs of educating illegal immigrants' children, providing medical care to illegal immigrants and jailing those convicted of committing crimes. The report estimates the total cost at $10.5 billion each year, but that is offset by about $1.7 billion in taxes that illegal immigrants pay.
The study assumes that there are about 1 million children of illegal immigrant parents in California, or about 15 percent of the state's K-12 school enrolled population. The estimate is based on a 1994 study by the Urban Institute that concluded there were 307,000 illegal immigrant children enrolled in the state's public schools.
Martin also added an estimate of 597,000 U.S.-born children whose parents are illegal immigrants arriving at a total of 1,022,000 children. Multiplying the number of children by the estimated $7,577 the state spends on average per pupil, the study arrived at the $7.7 billion figure.
Including the number of U.S.-born children in the study is one of the reasons pro-immigrant groups said the study is biased.
"I think FAIR is without doubt an extremist organization that tries to portray itself as a mainstream group," said Christian Ramirez, director of the San Diego office of the American Friends Service Committee, an advocate group for legal and illegal immigrants.
The study's author defended the report, saying that the children were born in the United States as a result of their parents' illegal entry into the country.
"In no way does the report identify them as different kinds of citizens, because they would not have been born in the U.S. had their parents not come into the country illegally," Martin said.
To arrive at the cost of providing health care to illegal immigrants, the federation's study used an earlier 2000 analysis of health expenses paid by border counties that concluded the state spent $908 million on medical care for immigrants.
Martin said he adjusted the 2000 figure for increases in the population and inflation on the cost of providing health care and estimated that the state will spend about $1.4 billion in 2004.
The report also estimated that the state will spend another $1.4 billion to jail the 48,000 illegal immigrants in state prisons. California is compensated by the federal government to offset the cost of housing this population, but the federal payments were a fraction, about $111 million, of the total cost, Martin said.
To figure out the contributions that this immigrant population makes in taxes, the federation's study said it adjusted the Urban Institute's study estimates of $732 million for population increases and concluded that they contribute about $1.7 billion in sales, income and property taxes.
A similar study conducted by the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, D.C., and released in August, said that illegal immigrants cost the federal government $10 billion more than they pay in taxes.
The federal government pays about $2.2 billion in medical treatment for uninsured immigrants, according to the report. It pays $1.9 billion in food assistance programs, such as food stamps and school lunches, for low-income families. And it pays $1.4 billion in aid to schools that educate illegal immigrant children.
Martin said states bear most of the cost of illegal immigration.
"State costs are much higher on a per capita basis because of the fact that the largest expenses are medical care and education and those are borne at the local level, not the federal," Martin said.
The federation's full report is at: www.fairus.org.
Contact staff writer Edward Sifuentes at (760) 740-5426 or esifuentes@nctimes.com.
U2DMfan
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
Somebody in leadership has to be willing to take a hit.
In 1977 Jimmy Carter pardoned all the draft dodgers from Vietnam. He got all kinds of heat, even from his own party in some instances, but it was the best solution out of a bunch of bad solutions.
The problem was complicated and nuanced but he made a decision and it allowed the country to move forward.
It's not a perfect analogy at all to this situation, point is someone needs to step up. The legislation is in place to prosecute those that hire illegals. So leadership needs to step up to the plate one way or the other.
In 1977 Jimmy Carter pardoned all the draft dodgers from Vietnam. He got all kinds of heat, even from his own party in some instances, but it was the best solution out of a bunch of bad solutions.
The problem was complicated and nuanced but he made a decision and it allowed the country to move forward.
It's not a perfect analogy at all to this situation, point is someone needs to step up. The legislation is in place to prosecute those that hire illegals. So leadership needs to step up to the plate one way or the other.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
More checkpoints. It would be cheaper than building a wall and then have the walls having to still be maned.Justin24 said:
Yeah, right. It wasn't like you were speaking from the opposite point of view.Justin24 said:
Yeah, that would help things out.Justin24 said:
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
DO YOU READ PEOPLE'S POSTS?
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Justin24 said:
Here, look I'll copy and paste for you, so you don't have to scroll up;
There are certain high traffic places where people can cross the border. Man those places. Actually do what you've been saying for years. It's a lot more simpler than building a wall. A wall just makes you like an unwelcoming racist bitch of a country.
you build one check point they find another way in and then have to build more and more and more. Not only that, you have to deal with drug runners, which would then lead to more money being used to stop that. You build a wall with entrances and then it would be more difficult to get in.
Was China considered racist when they built the great wall, or when the Berlin built there wall?
Was China considered racist when they built the great wall, or when the Berlin built there wall?
U2DMfan
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
BonoVoxSupastar said:
We'd have to be willing to take that hit. If it were in the cards in the first place.
On the other hand, welcoming in millions and millions of ILLEGAL immigrants and giving them amnesty or citizenship and then building the wall might take some heat off of that charge.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Justin24 said:
Like I said, you only have certain parts of the border that people use to cross. You man those places and given them radiuses that cover the border.
A wall would have to be manned as well, for wall don't stop everything.
Justin24 said:
You realize it was torn down right?
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
U2DMfan said:
There's just too much of a cost involved in building a wall that would do little to stop anything on it's own.
And if we're going to build a wall, why not at the Canadian border as well? Do we not fear the white people?
U2DMfan
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
Justin24 said:
The Soviets built the Berlin Wall, and it's fair to say it was a lightning rod of controversy.
Look, building a wall on the border isn't the greatest solution but it's one of many bad solutions.
Is a fence less imposing?
How about a moat?
I mean, either we secure the border one way or we don't.
I don't think it matters how we do it in the end.
I said build a wall in an earlier post just for the effect of contrast.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Yes an example that was torn down for a reason...Justin24 said:
Justin24 said:
NO, that's what we have now. That's why I said more, so we have smaller radius.
U2DMfan
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Are the white people flooding the Canadian border and creating a HUGE financial problem and security risk?
Let's compare apples to apples here.
I appreciate what you are getting at, I just think this situation can't be tied down the same way.
*Edit
Wanted to add, there is a perception about race and what we think is fair to some and not to others.
But to solve this problem there have to be some hits taken.
And there is clearly no great solution.
Last edited:
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Justin24 said:
Like I've said before, you would still have to man a wall. Do you not think walls could be scaled or demolished?
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
U2DMfan said:
I was saying that on purely security reasons.
As far as financial problem, I haven't seen one article or study that showed both the give and take, until then a wall is a waste.
U2DMfan
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
Justin24 said:
You are just playing semantics here.
I think the financial burden of actually securing the Mexican border is going to be big no matter how you slice it.
The question is, do we actually secure it or just pretend like we do?
One thing a wall might provide is a clear message that we mean business. There are a bevy of image problems asscociated with that. of course, which is why it has never been done.
But I don't think the issue here should be A Wall vs Checkpoints etc.
The issue is: do we ACTUALLY secure the border and probably risk losing the cheap labor by giving some amnesty of a sort.
Because that's what it comes down to, in my mind.
If cheap labor was off the table, the border would have been sealed up (as mush as possible) years ago.
Most politicians are afraid of losing that cheap labor as well as the hispanic vote, especially in southwestern and border states.
Somebody will have to take the hit, eventually or it's business as usual.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Justin24 said:
People find their ways into bank vaults you will never design an impenetrable wall. It's a huge waste and can be solved by more man power.
U2DMfan
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Yeah, I know what you mean.
I don't really advocate a wall 100%, I just think that it's got to be on the table as much as anything else until we figure out what to do with the actual illegals themselves.
You could turn the National Guard loose on the border, but is that really how we want to use those resources? I don't know.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
U2DMfan said:
Bush has been promising Homeland Security there for years...
That's what our resouces should be doing...
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Dreadsox said:
History 101
It may take a little more than that.
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