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Old 03-28-2006, 02:21 PM   #31
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Originally posted by Irvine511
however, illegal immigrants might be parasitic in some ways, but i'm more than willing to bet they more than make up for it through services rendered
But who gains?

A contractor spends less on labor. He pockets the difference. Plus 1 for the contractor. Maybe he passes the savings on to his client.

An illegal family use the ER as their family doctor. Don't pay. Minus 1 for tax payer.

An illegal sends their children to public schools. Minus 2 for tax payer.

I think it's insane to just "assume" is all equals out in the end.
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Old 03-28-2006, 03:04 PM   #32
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Originally posted by MrBrau1


But who gains?

A contractor spends less on labor. He pockets the difference. Plus 1 for the contractor. Maybe he passes the savings on to his client.

An illegal family use the ER as their family doctor. Don't pay. Minus 1 for tax payer.

An illegal sends their children to public schools. Minus 2 for tax payer.

I think it's insane to just "assume" is all equals out in the end.


so what i pay more for in health insurance is made up for what i save on labor costs when i want to put in a new kitchen, or have my house cleaned (sorry to dredge up such horrible stereotypes, but in my experience, this is a somewhat representative slice of the reality).

also, wouldn't you rather pay for medical services and schools for the children of illegals rather than have them operating outside the system? isn't that asking for more guns, drugs, crime, and prostitution (which in turn leads to increased STD breakouts and HIV infections)? doesn't it make sense to deal with the people we have here and give them some semblance of education and health care so that they don't become more of a burden via drugs and crime? and isn't this burden compensated for by the under-the-table services many are willing to give to the middle-to-upper-middle class American?
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Old 03-28-2006, 03:18 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




so what i pay more for in health insurance is made up for what i save on labor costs when i want to put in a new kitchen, or have my house cleaned (sorry to dredge up such horrible stereotypes, but in my experience, this is a somewhat representative slice of the reality).

also, wouldn't you rather pay for medical services and schools for the children of illegals rather than have them operating outside the system? isn't that asking for more guns, drugs, crime, and prostitution (which in turn leads to increased STD breakouts and HIV infections)? doesn't it make sense to deal with the people we have here and give them some semblance of education and health care so that they don't become more of a burden via drugs and crime? and isn't this burden compensated for by the under-the-table services many are willing to give to the middle-to-upper-middle class American?
That all makes sense.

But I can't agree with it w/o #'s. I'll need to find some estimates on illegal immirgants burden/value. Any ideas?

Regardless, I live here and pay taxes. They don't.

I've no problem with them if they pay taxes.
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Old 03-28-2006, 03:46 PM   #34
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Originally posted by MrBrau1
But I can't agree with it w/o #'s. I'll need to find some estimates on illegal immirgants burden/value. Any ideas?



no, not a clue.

i'm really just extrapolating based upon anecdotal evidence and some of the broader arguments for and against immigration.

hard numbers would be nice, but i've no clue where to find them.



Quote:
Regardless, I live here and pay taxes. They don't.

I've no problem with them if they pay taxes.

which is totally understandable.

dunno what to do
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Old 03-28-2006, 04:08 PM   #35
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What I was trying to point out is do we want our society to end up like france.
I don't understand the connection, either. We're not the French.
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Old 03-28-2006, 04:10 PM   #36
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Originally posted by MrBrau1

Regardless, I live here and pay taxes. They don't.

I've no problem with them if they pay taxes.
The "They" pay some taxes - specifically sales taxes.

The job market will continue to face pressures to lower costs by (i) outsourcing work to overseas or (ii) import workers to do the tasks at lower costs.
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Old 03-28-2006, 04:12 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




so what i pay more for in health insurance is made up for what i save on labor costs when i want to put in a new kitchen, or have my house cleaned (sorry to dredge up such horrible stereotypes, but in my experience, this is a somewhat representative slice of the reality).

also, wouldn't you rather pay for medical services and schools for the children of illegals rather than have them operating outside the system? isn't that asking for more guns, drugs, crime, and prostitution (which in turn leads to increased STD breakouts and HIV infections)? doesn't it make sense to deal with the people we have here and give them some semblance of education and health care so that they don't become more of a burden via drugs and crime? and isn't this burden compensated for by the under-the-table services many are willing to give to the middle-to-upper-middle class American?
This makes sense to me too.
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Old 03-28-2006, 04:12 PM   #38
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Originally posted by verte76


I don't understand the connection, either. We're not the French.
A combination of pressures on the work force and a steady stream of immigrants would be the connection.
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Old 03-28-2006, 04:30 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrBrau1


That all makes sense.

But I can't agree with it w/o #'s. I'll need to find some estimates on illegal immirgants burden/value. Any ideas?

Regardless, I live here and pay taxes. They don't.

I've no problem with them if they pay taxes.

I think its a pretty common misconception that illegal immigrants don't pay taxes.

The day labor workers obviously don't but a hotel maid working for Marriott or Hilton (with a false Social Security number) is going to have taxes taken from her check. Tax preparation firms are everywhere in the largely immigrant areas of Orange County where I live, so someone is paying taxes
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Old 03-28-2006, 04:39 PM   #40
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Originally posted by Bono's American Wife



I think its a pretty common misconception that illegal immigrants don't pay taxes.

The day labor workers obviously don't but a hotel maid working for Marriott or Hilton (with a false Social Security number) is going to have taxes taken from her check. Tax preparation firms are everywhere in the largely immigrant areas of Orange County where I live, so someone is paying taxes
That's true.

Of the 8-15 million illegal immigrants in the US, how many pay full income/social security/state taxes?

If they don't have to pay full share, why do I?
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Old 03-28-2006, 05:06 PM   #41
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There is no choice but to grant those already here immunity.
Give them a chance at full citizenship, get them on the tax roll and start paying in. Force them to be accountable to our system.
This seems to be the only situation that makes sense, in comparison with all others.

That said, then we need to build a wall.

If a dirty bomb (or another weapon) went off in Houston or Phoenix tomorrow because some shitbag terrorist got across the Rio Grande, we'd have the willpower to do it. Why not do it before it happens? After all, we know that they are trying, besides the problems with illegals crossing to live here, there is a huge, huge. huge security risk.

Before 9/11 we didn't search hardly anything on airplanes, passengers or otherwise because of X, Y, and Z which in hindsight seems awfully fucking silly, doesn't it?

If we are going to raise a big stink about Arabs controlling our ports, then we need to raise almighty hell about the huge gaping hole in our security known as the Mexican border.
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Old 03-28-2006, 06:04 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


A combination of pressures on the work force and a steady stream of immigrants would be the connection.
interesting.. because the 1st protests where about the too little chances of integration (so we have immigrants but not the work pressure).
and nowadays protests are about the work pressure/ insecurity for young educated people. Here we have students of mostly well doing middle class french families with a secure social background. (so we have work here but immigration is not an issue)

you DO realize that even though the protests are timewise pretty close.. they are not really related in their factual matter & active group
...
In other words.. 2 different problems at the same time

so what was your connection again?
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Old 03-28-2006, 06:24 PM   #43
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It wasn't my connection.

And I wouldn't suggest that the protests stem from the exact same concerns.

But, both societies will need to manage economies that have an influx of new workers (willing to work at lower prices) and existing workers (who want to maintain existing pay/benefits packages.

It just be a matter of time before the US grasps all the elements involved with the immigration issue.
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Old 03-28-2006, 06:35 PM   #44
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This proves to me that in the US whoever wants to work and puts effort into it will have work and will make a good amount of money doing it.

In the states, many jobs earn $7 an hour. That´s insane. If you came to Honduras and you saw the amount of work people have to do to earn $7 you would be amazed at how good you have it.
It's all relative. $7/hour won't support a family here in the US. It won't support a single person, either. Believe me, I've tried to live on that and had to work two jobs in order to pay rent, buy groceries, etc.

As far as your first comment, there are many people who work very hard for what they need to survive but still barely break even. Really, not everyone here in the US is rich.

Now, regarding immigration. I listened to President Bush give an interview this afternoon on CNN and he says that these illegal workers come here and do jobs that Americans won't. This is true, but how come no one wants to address the reasons why Americans won't take on these jobs? You can't support a family on low wages and just the fact that these businesses get away with exploiting the illegal workers is despicable.

The situation isn't likely to be solved by building a wall, as tempting as that might be.
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Old 03-28-2006, 07:20 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bono's American Wife
The day labor workers obviously don't but a hotel maid working for Marriott or Hilton (with a false Social Security number) is going to have taxes taken from her check.
You don't pay taxes if you're here illegally. period.
If you are here legally, then you pay taxes.
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