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Old 03-28-2006, 04:27 AM   #16
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Originally posted by Justin24
What I was trying to point out is do we want our society to end up like france.
could it be that you actually have no clue what is really going on in France (other than knowing someone rioted over there)?

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Melon posted: (...) if America is supposed to open its floodgates to the rest of the world, I want to see the rest of the world open its floodgates to Americans.
so far i have not heard of any floods of Americans trying to actually go somewhere (or being actively locked out wherever all these masses where flodding too).. but i might just have overheard these news
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Old 03-28-2006, 09:23 AM   #17
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Originally posted by a-mole

could it be that you actually have no clue what is really going on in France (other than knowing someone rioted over there)?


so far i have not heard of any floods of Americans trying to actually go somewhere (or being actively locked out wherever all these masses where flodding too).. but i might just have overheard these news
there was a mass exodus to Canada planned after Bush won the last election. guess it didn't happen, must have been the immigration laws.......
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Old 03-28-2006, 09:57 AM   #18
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indeed.... i forgot about that.. yes... that must have been it
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Old 03-28-2006, 10:20 AM   #19
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Originally posted by melon
Regardless, it's not our obligation to pick up the slack for inept, corrupt governments like Mexico. Maybe if illegal immigration wasn't an option, Mexicans would have risen up and overthrown their government decades ago.
If Mexico is so darned concerned about it's illegal migrants, why don't they help out their own citizens instead of expecting the US to?! The government wants the power over the people, but it won't accept its responsibility TO the people!
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Old 03-28-2006, 10:26 AM   #20
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Originally posted by Sue DeNym

If Mexico is so darned concerned about it's illegal migrants, why don't they help out their own citizens instead of expecting the US to?! The government wants the power over the people, but it won't accept its responsibility TO the people!
Mexico benefits greatly from illegal immigration. Between the reduced cost of services for those who travel to the US and the amount of money sent from the US back to Mexico, there is little incentive to end the process by Mexico.
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Old 03-28-2006, 10:54 AM   #21
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It's not as simple as that. Most Americans are far from "wealthy." If we all lived like kings, I would see your point. However, parts of the U.S. are actually as destitute as some third world countries--something that presidents like to avoid while they're busy telling us that we're the greatest nation that ever existed.

I will agree, however, that a lot of this "illegal immigrant" rhetoric is actually misplaced. We're told that we're losing jobs to illegal immigrants, and while that is correct to a point, we're probably losing more jobs from globalization and layoffs from downsizing corporations. As such, don't blame Republicans, don't blame Bush, don't blame corporate America for being unemployed/underemployed. Blame "illegal immigrants."

The ever-so-prophetic episode of "The Simpsons," was right on the mark. The high cost of the "Bear Patrol" (or, as I put it, "The War on (Bear) Terror") was not blamed on government ineptitude/bloat, but, instead, illegal immigrants.

However, my other main beef about all this is, if America is supposed to open its floodgates to the rest of the world, I want to see the rest of the world open its floodgates to Americans. Loose immigration policy should be a two-way street.

Regardless, it's not our obligation to pick up the slack for inept, corrupt governments like Mexico. Maybe if illegal immigration wasn't an option, Mexicans would have risen up and overthrown their government decades ago. South America has certainly gone places over the last 2-3 decades that Mexico could only dream of.

Melon
I have relatives who moved to the US about 20 years ago knowing nothing. With nothing.

Now, they have a beautiful house several cars and are actually better off than we are here in Honduras.

This proves to me that in the US whoever wants to work and puts effort into it will have work and will make a good amount of money doing it.

In the states, many jobs earn $7 an hour. That´s insane. If you came to Honduras and you saw the amount of work people have to do to earn $7 you would be amazed at how good you have it.

All I´m saying is that things are way more accesible in the states. If my country had that I would be more than happy to share it with other people who are starving to death.

The truth is most illegal immigrants go to the states to work and most send money back to their countries to help their families. You see? That means they make enough money for themselves to survive and extra to send back home. That would be impossible in the countries they live in.

Also, I forgot to mention this before, but how insulting is a literal wall being constructed to separate a country from another? How demeaning is that? Try building a wall that separates you from your neighbor in your house and see how offended he/she will feel.
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Old 03-28-2006, 11:04 AM   #22
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
Also, I forgot to mention this before, but how insulting is a literal wall being constructed to separate a country from another? How demeaning is that? Try building a wall that separates you from your neighbor in your house and see how offended he/she will feel.
Walls or fences separating homes are a common feature in US communities.
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Old 03-28-2006, 11:09 AM   #23
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy

Also, I forgot to mention this before, but how insulting is a literal wall being constructed to separate a country from another? How demeaning is that? Try building a wall that separates you from your neighbor in your house and see how offended he/she will feel.
Neighbors don't build walls like that because they don't come over when they're not invited and mooch. They don't pay taxes. They use tax based services such as education. They put an extra strain on an already burdened health care system.

Mexico needs to get their act together and improve the situation in their own house before they go causing trouble in somebody else's house.
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Old 03-28-2006, 11:13 AM   #24
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Did you read the rest of my post or just the easiest part to retort?
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Old 03-28-2006, 11:13 AM   #25
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
The truth is most illegal immigrants go to the states to work and most send money back to their countries to help their families. You see? That means they make enough money for themselves to survive and extra to send back home. That would be impossible in the countries they live in.
They pay no taxes or social secutiry. And they put a burden on social/medical services.

I wonder how much would get sent home if they paid taxes?

I wonder how much tax revenue is available from illegals?

If they paid taxes and SS, I'd have no problem with them.
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Old 03-28-2006, 11:16 AM   #26
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Give them visa´s and register them.
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Old 03-28-2006, 11:22 AM   #27
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
Give them visa´s and register them.
Sure. That $7/hour is now $4.90 after taxes & SS.
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Old 03-28-2006, 11:59 AM   #28
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Still better than any wage in Latin America.
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Old 03-28-2006, 01:22 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Regardless, it's not our obligation to pick up the slack for inept, corrupt governments like Mexico. Maybe if illegal immigration wasn't an option, Mexicans would have risen up and overthrown their government decades ago. South America has certainly gone places over the last 2-3 decades that Mexico could only dream of.

Melon
Ok I usualy agree with you in most of your views but you've completely lost me on this comment, Mexico has the lowest inflation in it's history by 4%, the government has managed to maintain the dollar at less than 11 pesos for the last 6 years, the economy is growing slowly but things are actually better and economically we are way better than most if not all South American countries

There's a lot of problems with our government, however Fox or anyone else in the government have never publicly encourage Mexicans to go to the USA. I'm actually in favor of the US reinforcing their borders, I do think a wall is insulting but if that's the way to go to prevent more illegal immigrants from going then so be it the US goverment can do whatever they want with their ground
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Old 03-28-2006, 02:09 PM   #30
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i find this issue very complex, and i really can't find a way to come down firmly on any side of the issue. i've also lived my entire life in the northeast, so perhaps my views would change if i were in California or Texas or New Mexico, but it seems to me that laws aren't any good unless you enforce them. you really can't get around the fact that there is a legal way to immigrate, and an illegal way to immigrate. one of the least things a government owes to its people is the ability to create and maintain stable, defined borders, (even THIS government, easily the most hapless bunch of plutocrats in my lifetime), and i don't think it's unreasonable for people who immigrated legally to feel a bit of resentment towards those who have arrived illegally. while i can understand, very well, the desire to get out of corrupt countries and try to improve one's situation, there's also a side to me that thinks, to be blunt if not outright rude, that it really isn't my problem. or at least it's not a problem that i feel i can address, or that we should address, simply by letting everyone who wants to come here just walk across the border.

however, illegal immigrants might be parasitic in some ways, but i'm more than willing to bet they more than make up for it through services rendered as well as adding to the national ethos of individual advancement through hard work and gumption (gosh! i sound like a platitudinous republican!) the people i suspect are illegal immigrants in my neighborhood (i have no way of knowing ... many are Salvadorean, and i would imagine that many were able to immigrate quite legally after the civil wars down there in the 80s) add to the vitality of the neighborhood as well as the renovation and rehabilitation of the houses on my street as quality labor is offered as a price that makes renovations financially possible.

so ... i dunno.
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