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Old 11-07-2005, 06:01 PM   #31
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


The United States is campaigning against Venezuela, but are you going to compare Bush to Hitler?

And as for campaigning against "modern industries", Venezuela's wealth (and thus Chavez's social reforms) are built on revenue from oil so I hardly think Chavez is likely to campaign against industry, whatever you mean by that.



Actually, Chavez has been involved in building solidarity between many of the countries of Latin America -- it's one of the reasons the United States is so strongly opposed to him.

So much more I want to say on this subject but I don't have time right now -- I'll write some more later once you've had chance to reply.
No, I don't want to say that Chavez is really like Hitler, but the way is in part similar.
Hitler increased the standard of living in Germany, gave jobs to everybody (but the people forget that this all was to prepare for war) and started to campaign against minorities like Jews (every country in Europe was opposed to Jews), gays, handicapped and so on.

Chavez also increased the standard of living.
Yes, he needs countries like the USA to sell his oil, but on the other hand he says capitalism is the reason for natural disasters, even tsunamis, what is totally crap, and also tells his people that the USA and other western economies are a danger. I don't know what Chavez thinks, but it is strange that he says we are responsible for natural disasters or the things he told about Halloween. And those are no positive commentaries.

Recently I read something about Bush which also is something Hitler did. But I don't want to say those people are in any way similar, if you're looking at people you'll find many who do things Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Minh or whoever did also. You can't prevent this. So I would never try to say two people are same or do want the same.

Cuba is no third world, but also no first world. The farmers hardly have enough money to live, people get arrested and tortured if they are suspected members of the oppositions, and if the state doesn't want to, the health care is not provided for you.

So, I don't want to live in Cuba at all. Doesn't matter what the statistical life expectancy is like, or how good the healthcare system is.
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Old 11-07-2005, 06:02 PM   #32
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Originally posted by BorderGirl
As seen from your post the only thing Cuba exports now is propaganda (and refugees of course).
Of course Cuba is not rich, as it's nearest neighbour boycott's it.

But you'd probably say that's Castro's fault right?
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Old 11-07-2005, 06:10 PM   #33
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Let's kill Chavez.

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Old 11-07-2005, 06:18 PM   #34
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Cuba does have a standard of living, social stability, low infant mortality, education, healthcare.

Many of the governments and dictators we prop up (El Salvador and on and on) do not have this.

Cuba lacks tolerance for dissent, homosexuality, and more--just like Christian Right in the US!!

Libertarian on social issues.
Socialist on ecomic issues.
Never really been tried.
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Old 11-07-2005, 06:24 PM   #35
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Originally posted by Anu
Libertarian on social issues.
Socialist on ecomic issues.
Never really been tried.

Sweden and the other Scandinavian countries are the closest to this.

I have been told by a Swede that they also suffer from stifling political correctness but that's probably a minor gripe.
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Old 11-07-2005, 06:36 PM   #36
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Originally posted by financeguy


Of course Cuba is not rich, as it's nearest neighbour boycott's it.

But you'd probably say that's Castro's fault right?
While the US 'boycotts' Cuba, Europe and the rest of the world trades with Cuba.
The policy that Bono is publically advocating for Africa calls for transparancy and accountability. Which is also just what the US has asked of Cuba for 40 years.
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Old 11-07-2005, 06:40 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anu
Cuba does have a standard of living, social stability, low infant mortality, education, healthcare.

Many of the governments and dictators we prop up (El Salvador and on and on) do not have this.

Cuba lacks tolerance for dissent, homosexuality, and more--just like Christian Right in the US!!

Libertarian on social issues.
Socialist on ecomic issues.
Never really been tried.
Really? Then how come people are so desparte to flee, sometimes paying with their lives? While your comments about the Christian Right may or may not be wrong, at least in this country we can vote the bastards out in 4 years.
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Old 11-07-2005, 06:40 PM   #38
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Originally posted by BorderGirl
While the US 'boycotts' Cuba, Europe and the rest of the world trades with Cuba.
The policy that Bono is publically advocating for Africa calls for transparancy and accountability. Which is also just what the US has asked of Cuba for 40 years.

Why is it the US's business how Cuba organises its system of governance?

The US government is still sore over the failed Bay of Pigs invasion 40 years ago.

Your country trades with many countries with worse human rights records, so face facts.
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Old 11-07-2005, 06:46 PM   #39
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Originally posted by BorderGirl


Really? Then how come people are so desparte to flee, sometimes paying with their lives?
Actually, I have a friend who fled the US to live in Cuba.

He is married to a Cuban woman and has two kids with her.

I also have good friends who have traveled to Cuba to see it with their own eyes.

Then, the US fines them *thousands* of dollars for violating the travel ban.

I think AUDIOSLAVE got permission before doing a show there, though. As do baseball teams.

Freedom . . . .Hmmmm.

Yes, since Pat Robertson or Pat Buchannon is not yet America's Castro, my Religious right comment was not a fair comparison. We are much freer now than if the *real Theocrats* were in power.

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Old 11-07-2005, 06:52 PM   #40
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I guess that erases the thousands that have tried to get to the US.
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Old 11-07-2005, 07:05 PM   #41
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Originally posted by Anu


I also have good friends who have traveled to Cuba to see it with their own eyes.

Then, the US fines them *thousands* of dollars for violating the travel ban.
You might be too young to remember boycotting South Africa/ Apartheid.
The idea was not to trade/do business with a government in which their own citizens have no rights. Most things available to tourists in Cuba are off limits to its citizens.
There is a huge difference between visiting a place (and having the means to leave) and actually being a citizen of a communist country.
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Old 11-07-2005, 07:10 PM   #42
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Originally posted by Anu


Actually, I have a friend who fled the US to live in Cuba.

He is married to a Cuban woman and has two kids with her.


Freedom . . . .Hmmmm.

Your friend will certainly begin to ponder the question of freedom....hmmmm, when he realizes thatthe children he fathered, 'his' children, now belong to the government.

Consider what a totalitarian dictatorship actually involves: (1) no freedom of speech; (2) imprisonment or death for "political" crimes, e.g., criticizing the state; (3) a one-party political system; and (4) no private property. In effect, under Communism or any form of dictatorship, you have no rights and are the property of the state, to be disposed of in any way the dictator sees fit. (That children are the property of the state is stated explicitly in the Cuban Constitution.)
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Old 11-07-2005, 07:28 PM   #43
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Originally posted by financeguy


Why is it the US's business how Cuba organises its system of governance?

It isn't, but,

Immigrants makeup America and therefore the exiles of Cuba are bringing attention to the inhumane conditions that exist on the island. Voicing what it's citizens cannot express for fear of retaliation.

Bono is doing the same when he says he "is going to work" for the worlds poor and oppressed, because they have no voices.

Weep for them, and also for us, since our lack of understanding/self righteousness perpetuates their conditions.

Read on:
A Women's Prison Known as Black Mantle
Agustin Blazquez with the collaboration of James Sutton
Thursday, March 15, 2001

One of the accomplishments of the Castro Revolution that Cubans have been "enjoying" for 42 years is the out-of-proportion proliferation of detention centers, jails and labor and concentration camps throughout Cuba.
That is not symptomatic of Castro alone, but of the totalitarian communist system he forced upon the island. The book "The Black Book of Communism" exposes the extensive prison networks of all of these regimes.

Written by six left-wing French intellectuals, the book caused a sensation in Europe in 1997, but has been largely ignored by the American left and the U.S. media. This book documents the repression, terror and crimes of communism all over the world since 1917, with the staggering count of 94,360,000 people killed.

Here in America, Dr. Armando Lago is writing a book about the same subject, but concentrating on the island of Cuba. Its title is "The Human Cost of Social Revolutions: The Black Book of Cuba." This book-in-progress so far has documented 97,582 deaths due to Castro's communist regime. As its European counterpart, this new book will likely be ignored by the American left and the U.S. media, or discredited, as is usually done with the facts of communism.

Being anti-Nazi is politically correct. But not, apparently, being anti-Communist – in spite of the overwhelming number of past crimes documented and the ones still going on in Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea, China, and in Central and South America where the Castro-supported communist guerrillas are very much active.

There are plenty of well-liked and publicized books, films, television programs and museums for the victims of the Nazis. The victims of communism, however, are disregarded. Go figure.

It is a matter of fact that all communist regimes declare war against their own people. That is the reason for the summary executions, the political assassinations, the disappearances, the physical and psychological tortures, the kangaroo trials, and the massive prison systems. And this takes us to Castro’s Cuba, which is not an exception among communist regimes.

In the area of El Watao, Havana, Castro built one of his infamous jails for women. This one is known as Black Mantle. Thousands of women have survived that jail while others have died.

María del Cármen Carro, an independent journalist inside Cuba working for the underground Center of Information About Democracy, on March 5, 2001, told the story of Maritza Lugo Fernández.

Maritza is the president of the November 30 Frank País Democratic Party, outlawed by the Castro regime. She has been a political prisoner held in Black Mantle for her belief in democracy and human rights for the Cuban people.

In her plea to all people of good will in the world, Maritza denounces the Cuban government and its main repressive arm, State Security – the equivalent of Hitler’s S.S. – for the crimes committed against the women political prisoners in Black Mantle. She describes daily crimes, abuses and injustices against the people of Cuba in an effort to maintain a regime based on lies and deceptions.

She says that the massive detention of innocent people in Cuba for the single reason of disagreeing with Castro’s regime must stop. Citizens are thrown, without trial, into inhumane dungeons where they are physically and psychologically tortured. The women political prisoners in Black Mantle as well as in other prisons throughout the island are forced into the same dungeons with dangerous common criminals. The fact that the Castro regime does not allow international inspections of their jails must stop. It is time to stop denying the nightmare that has been going on for 42 years.

Maritza explains that the political prisoners are treated with extreme cruelty, subjected to strict surveillance and searches. The dungeons are filthy and unfit for human habitation, with spoiled water filtering from above. The laundry sinks are clogged and they are not given soap. Most of the inmates have only a few pieces of clothing to wear. Meanwhile, the prison authorities conduct daily inspections to check the cleanliness and the prisoners are punished if they do not pass.

She says that while Castro’s government – for propaganda purposes – sends doctors and medicines abroad, the medical attention that they receive in Black Mantle is extremely poor and rarely are medicines made available. Many women after completing their terms leave the prison very ill. Also the diet is very poor, consisting mostly of badly prepared meager rations of rice or macaroni and ground "meat" made of Soya.

Maritza makes the Castro regime responsible for the separation of millions of Cuban families living all over the world. Their separation is due to the political situation that forces them to flee in desperate and dangerous escapes.

In spite of the deceptive propaganda about culture and education for international consumption, which has been fooling so many foreigners throughout the years, she accuses the regime of keeping the Cuban people in complete ignorance about politics and democracy. In Castro’s Cuba, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is officially considered a subversive document. Its possession by a citizen means confinement in jail.

Maritza’s plea from her dungeon at Black Mantle prison is that the people who attend the next conference of the United Nations Human Rights Commission in Geneva, Switzerland, will consider the dire situation of the Cuban people. She firmly believes that if there is any justice left in the world, Castro’s regime should be sanctioned for its constant violation of human rights. As Castro is committing these crimes, he is at the same time laughing at his victims, because the rest of the world looks the other way.

Maritza’s is not an isolated case. About a million people have gone through Castro’s gulag and those who survive tell stories that are much the same. But after 42 years the world still is not listening, especially the American people, just 90 miles away from the most brutal and repressive regime in the history of the Americas. It is a frustrating shame that because the U.S. media, which has failed to report the facts to the American people, must take much of the blame for Castro being and staying in power.

For people who are well informed of what is going on inside Cuba, these last eight years of the corrupt Clinton administration meant a setback for the suffering people of Cuba. It has been a wasted time. The policies of people-to-people contacts and cultural exchanges have failed. Castro, as usual, has controlled and used them for his propaganda benefit.

The drive to lift the travel restrictions on Americans to enjoy what apartheid Cuba offers only to tourists is immoral. The drive by unscrupulous businessmen to lift the U.S. embargo to take advantage of the exploited Cuban workers is morally reprehensible.

A way to end the Castro regime and stop 42 years of suffering in Cuba is to expose the regime for what it is. International condemnation, as was done with South Africa, will finally set the Cuban people free. Black Mantle and the rest of Castro’s infamous gulag and his toll of deaths will then become part of the sorrowful history of communism.
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Old 11-07-2005, 08:10 PM   #44
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Consider what a totalitarian dictatorship actually involves: (1) no freedom of speech; (2) imprisonment or death for "political" crimes, e.g., criticizing the state; (3) a one-party political system; and (4) no private property. In effect, under Communism or any form of dictatorship, you have no rights and are the property of the state, to be disposed of in any way the dictator sees fit. (That children are the property of the state is stated explicitly in the Cuban Constitution.)

Sort out the problems in your own country first.

Maybe then you could be in a position to preach.

See, to preach to others you need to be whiter than white.

And America ain't in that position right now, pure and simple.
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Old 11-07-2005, 08:15 PM   #45
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Originally posted by BorderGirl
Being anti-Nazi is politically correct.
You scare me.

Are you in Opus Dei by any chance? Just curious.
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