Was the UCLA Tazzing of a student excessive?

[Justin24]

The story goes that the on-campus police were doing a random student id check and this student did not have an ID on him. Supposedly he told them he was leaving, some argument started and finally they tazzed the guy. about 5 times I believe.

http://www.break.com/index/student_gets_tazed_for_not_having_id.html

I would really like to see more video besides this camera phone video, that really did not capture the start of all this.

 

[BVS]

Someone's getting fired.

 

[yolland]

Some background for anyone who's unfamiliar with the incident, as the video is rather hard to follow...

And yes, I definitely think it was excessive.

Los Angeles Times/Daily Bruin, November 16

The latest in a recent spate of cellphone videos documenting questionable arrest tactics surfaced Wednesday, this one showing a UCLA police officer using a Taser to stun a student who allegedly refused to leave the campus library. Grainy video of the Tuesday night incident at UCLA's Powell Library was broadcast Wednesday on TV news and the Internet, prompting a review of the officers' actions and outrage among students at the Westwood campus.

The footage showed the student, Mostafa Tabatabainejad, falling to the ground and crying out in pain as officers stunned him.

According to a campus police report, the incident began when community service officers, who serve as guards at the library, began their nightly routine of checking to make sure everyone using the library after 11 p.m. is a student or otherwise authorized to be there. Campus officials said the long-standing policy was adopted to ensure students' safety.

When Tabatabainejad, 23, refused to provide his ID to the community service officer, the officer told him he would have to show it or leave the library, the report said. After repeated requests, the officer left and returned with campus police, who asked Tabatabainejad to leave "multiple times," according to a statement by the UCLA Police Department. "He continued to refuse," the statement said. "As the officers attempted to escort him out, he went limp and continued to refuse to cooperate with officers or leave the building."

Witnesses disputed that account, saying that when campus police arrived, Tabatabainejad had begun to walk toward the door with his backpack. When an officer approached him and grabbed his arm, the witnesses said, Tabatabainejad told the officer to let go, yelling "Get off me" several times.

"Tabatabainejad encouraged library patrons to join his resistance," police said. [The video does not support this claim. --y.] "The officers deemed it necessary to use the Taser."

"It was beyond grotesque," said UCLA graduate David Remesnitsky of Los Angeles, who witnessed the incident. "By the end they took him over the stairs, lifted him up and Tasered him on his rear end. It seemed like it was inappropriately placed. The Tasering was so unnecessary and they just kept doing it."

Campus police confirmed that Tabatabainejad was stunned "multiple" times. By then, Remesnitsky said, a crowd of 50 or 60 had gathered and were shouting at the officers to stop and demanding their names and badge numbers. Remesnitsky said officers told him to leave or he would be Tasered.

Laila Gordy, a fourth-year economics student who was present in the library during the incident, said police officers threatened to shoot her with a Taser when she asked an officer for his name and his badge number. Gordy was visibly upset by the incident and said other students were also disturbed.

 

[redhotswami]

So the police were asking him to produce ID, he didn't, and got tazed. And now reports are referring to him as a Student.

First off I agree, the tazing was unnecessary. But secondly, are these headlines confirming then that he was in fact a student? Why all the fuss in the first place if he was a student all along. Isn't that what the community service officers were trying to ensure all along?

 

[Abomb-baby]

I don't know. I would have to reserve my judgement until all the FACTS came out. Although it does seem like he was being a pretty uncooperative A-Hole.

 

[yolland]

According to the UCLA paper (Daily Bruin) he didn't have his ID on him, which was grounds for making him leave under campus policy.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Being an unco-operative arsehole doesn't give a security staffer permission to abuse their discretionary powers. It's not even illegal. Being stunned 5 times is excessive. Being asked or forcibly removed from campus grounds is not.

 

[redhotswami]

wow that's it, huh? i guess it is kinda like showing your ticket on a train. interesting policy though. i don't see why signing in w/ another form of ID and writing your student ID number couldn't be a sufficient backup plan.

in any case, he WAS a student, didn't have his ID, and was tazed. it sucks to be tazed anyway, but to be tazed for not having an ID when you really ARE a student sucks even worse.

 

[Abomb-baby]

Does the student have any responsibility in all this? I mean if he would have left when asked would this maybe not have happened? I'm not saying it wasnt excessive, but we still don't have all the facts, do we? I think it is a bit premature to make judgements yet.

 

[anitram]

He's got a civil case against them and I believe it's the sort of case where the courts are likely to award large damages in order to send a message to the police force that this is unacceptable.

This was not by any means the reasonable application of force. The fact they repeated it another 4 times really goes to show that. Even if you were to say that the initial tazering was necessary to subdue him (which in itself is a poor argument), the following 4 are outrageous.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Doesn't matter whether we have all facts.

There were about four or five guardsmen who could easily throw him out without using the taser once.
And the other students are stating that he was on his way out when the guardsmen came back.

But tazing someone five times is like torture. And for what reasons? He just sat there and couldn't get up, understandably, and then they tazed him again.
There is no reason for that, and he was no risk in any ways, so it was excessive.

 

[Justin24]

After watching the video again. I am in the middle. The guy was refusing to listen to there orders which would have made it less difficult, and he got what he deserved. And then all the students who of course have no respect for authority anyways allways there to put down the police who were doing there job. They just stand there instead of telling the guy to cooparate instead lash out at the police for using reasonable force.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I don't think it's that easy to stand up after getting tazed.

Of course he could have co-operated better in the first place, but still there is no reason for using a tazer when they easily could have bring him out.

 

[Justin24]

But then he probably would have been yelling police brutality and the students in the library would have acted the same. All Instinct. You can still get up after being tazed. Your muscles have to relaxe after a few seconds.


I just want to know why it's so difficult for people to follow what a police officer asks you?

 

[BVS]

who of course have no respect for authority anyways allways there to put down the police who were doing there job.

This is a ridiculous statement.

For those of you who keep saying "we don't have all the facts, etc.", let me ask you a question: what actions demand multiple tazing?

Does being an asshole = tazing?
Not having ID = tazing?
Does, you're making me pick you up = tazing?
Or does, look at me I have a badge and a tazer = tazing?

Ok, honestly what actions demand tazing?

 

[Abomb-baby]

Well, Bonovox assuning YOU have all the info, I guess nothing you mentioned would warrant that. What about not cooperating? I have seen many police officers taze people who were not being complient. When you are asked by an officer of the law to do something, you have 2 choices: comply or defy. I guess we all make choices....

 

[yolland]

Ok, honestly what actions demand tazing?

I'm sure different police departments have different guidelines, but as a general rule, the idea behind them is that they provide an alternative to deadly force in situations where the offender is armed or resisting violently. Arizona was the first state to adopt widespread use of them (Taser Co. is located in Scottsdale) and their reasoning was that use of tasers in dangerous situations might help reduce shootings both of offenders by police, and of police by offenders. The original intent was not merely to make offenders more compliant--although that seems to be exactly how the UCLA police used them here. Neither the police report nor the eyewitness accounts suggest that Tabatabainejad was resisting violently.

 

[BVS]

Well, Bonovox assuning YOU have all the info, I guess nothing you mentioned would warrant that.

I asked you an honest question, I'm sorry you couldn't answer it.

What about not cooperating? I have seen many police officers taze people who were not being complient. When you are asked by an officer of the law to do something, you have 2 choices: comply or defy. I guess we all make choices....

I've seen many who didn't cooperate with officers and they got handcuffed and dragged out, and get this, without using a tazer.

 

[BVS]

Neither the police report nor the eyewitness accounts suggest that Tabatabainejad was resisting violently.

Exactly.

 

[randhail]

What gets me is this kid was in the LIBRARY. Do cops think that this place is a hotbed of criminal behavior? It's not like he was a drunk fool after a football game causing trouble. He didn't have a school idea on him? Whoop-di-doo. Look his name up in the student directory, do something besides use the taser.

 

[Abomb-baby]

What you dont get is that since he apparently wasn't complying, the next step would be some sort of physical altercation. So now the police officer is put in a position to engage this person physically, or let this little device do the talking. I could see from an officers POV, I might not want to put myself in harms way unneccesarily I still believe for the most part these tazer devices are fairly safe. They've been used for years and we're now just starting to hear How Bad they are.. I mean I think I would rather be tazed than pepper sprayed, personally. You weren't there and neither was I. I do know one thing: when I'm asked by the cops to do something, generally I tend to comply.

 

[kellyahern]

But then he probably would have been yelling police brutality and the students in the library would have acted the same. All Instinct. You can still get up after being tazed. Your muscles have to relaxe after a few seconds.

Physically, maybe. But after the first tazing, he appeared to be pretty hysterical. From the video, he sounds like he was saying he was on his way out (albeit in a belligerent way). Did the police try to calm him down before by talking to him (from the video, it didn't seem like he was physically threatening anyone, just very upset)?
It seems the tazing escalated the situation, especially with the crowd. How long did the police talk to him before he was tazed? It seemed like at the end, they had him handcuffed and physically dragged him out. Why couldn't they have done that after he was first tazed? Was it really necessary to do it 4 more times?

I have seen people on the news or other tv shows get tazed for not cooperating with police orders, but I've never seen them do it over and over again. Usually, don't they taze them to subdue them so they can handcuff them? Was the guy resisting violently after he was handcuffed (kicking)?

A lot more information has to be received in this case I think.

 

[BVS]

What you dont get is that since he apparently wasn't complying, the next step would be some sort of physical altercation. So now the police officer is put in a position to engage this person physically, or let this little device do the talking. I could see from an officers POV, I might not want to put myself in harms way unneccesarily I still believe for the most part these tazer devices are fairly safe. They've been used for years and we're now just starting to hear How Bad they are.. I mean I think I would rather be tazed than pepper sprayed, personally. You weren't there and neither was I. I do know one thing: when I'm asked by the cops to do something, generally I tend to comply.

What you don't get was he was handcuffed and on the floor, what was he going to do? How was he going to harm the officers?

Lots of questions, and you haven't answered one.

 

[BVS]

I just want to know why it's so difficult for people to follow what a police officer asks you?

Believe it or not some people have principles(doesn't matter if you agree with them, understand them, or not) and those priciples are worth resisting arrest for. This individual felt like he was being kicked out unjustly. Like Randhail said a quick look in the records would have cleared this up...

It comes down to this, he wasn't being violent, period.

 

[anitram]

What you dont get is that since he apparently wasn't complying, the next step would be some sort of physical altercation. So now the police officer is put in a position to engage this person physically, or let this little device do the talking.

Even if we accept this argument (which I think is weak), what compelled them to shoot him with the tazer another 4 times after the initial hit? The officers will have HUGE problems because of that, as they should.

 

[Abomb-baby]

What you don't get was he was handcuffed and on the floor, what was he going to do? How was he going to harm the officers?

Lots of questions, and you haven't answered one.

Funny because thats not what the news report said:

The footage showed the student, Mostafa Tabatabainejad, falling to the ground and crying out in pain as officers stunned him.


Why is it the schools resposibility to "check the records" to make sure this guys a student? Obviously, if he didn't have his student ID there was probably no way to validate who he was. The school had a policy. Have your ID with you to use the library. Quite Simple actually.

 

[BVS]

Funny because thats not what the news report said:

The footage showed the student, Mostafa Tabatabainejad, falling to the ground and crying out in pain as officers stunned him.

So, but what about the other 4 or 5 stuns? Was he going to do a running headbutt?

Why is it the schools resposibility to "check the records" to make sure this guys a student? Obviously, if he didn't have his student ID there was probably no way to validate who he was. The school had a policy. Have your ID with you to use the library. Quite Simple actually.

What's the first thing a cop does when he pulls you over? He runs your plates to see who you are. Sometimes people forget their IDs, it shouldn't be tazer worthy. Quite simple.

 

[yolland]

New article from the Daily Bruin.

Community responds to Taser use in Powell

An incident late Tuesday night in which a UCLA student was stunned at least four times with a Taser has left the UCLA community questioning whether the university police officers' use of force was an appropriate response to the situation. Mostafa Tabatabainejad, a UCLA student, was repeatedly stunned with a Taser and then taken into custody when he did not exit the CLICC Lab in Powell Library in a timely manner. Community Service Officers had asked Tabatabainejad to leave after he failed to produce his BruinCard during a random check at around 11:30 p.m. Tuesday. UCPD Assistant Chief of Police Jeff Young said the checks are a standard procedure in the library after 11 p.m.

A six-minute video showed Tabatabainejad audibly screaming in pain as he was stunned several times with a Taser, each time for three to five seconds. He was told repeatedly to stand up and stop fighting, and was told that if he did not do so he would "get Tased again."

Tabatabainejad was also stunned with the Taser when he was already handcuffed, said Carlos Zaragoza, a third-year English and history student who witnessed the incident.

As Tabatabainejad was being dragged through the room by two officers, he repeated in a strained scream, "I'm not fighting you" and "I said I would leave."

The officers used the "drive stun" setting in the Taser, which delivers a shock to a specific part of the body with the front of the Taser, Young said. "It's an electrical shock. ... It causes pain," Young said, adding that the drive stun would not likely demobilize a person or cause residual pain after the shock was administered. But according to a study published in the Lancet Medical Journal in 2001, a charge of three to five seconds can result in immobilization for five to 15 minutes, which would mean that Tabatabainejad could have been physically unable to stand when the officers demanded that he do so.

During the altercation between Tabatabainejad and the officers, bystanders can be heard in the video repeatedly asking the officers to stop and requesting their names and identification numbers. The video showed one officer responding to a student by threatening that the student would "get Tased too." At this point, the officer was still holding a Taser.

According to a UCPD press release, Tabatabainejad went limp and refused to exit as the officers attempted to escort him out. The release also stated Tabatabainejad "encouraged library patrons to join his resistance." At this point, the officers "deemed it necessary to use the Taser in a "drive stun' capacity."

Neither the video footage nor eyewitness accounts of the events confirmed that Tabatabainejad encouraged resistance, and he repeatedly told the officers he was not fighting and would leave.

 

[Abomb-baby]

No one said forgetting your ID is tazer worthy. I agree with you that after he was cuffed, it should have ceased. What I don't like is people thinking that they're special and the don't have to follow rules like everyone else. I really don't think he would have gotten tazed as he was walking out the door. It is impossible to tell from the video what went on prior to the first tazing.

 

[BVS]

During the altercation between Tabatabainejad and the officers, bystanders can be heard in the video repeatedly asking the officers to stop and requesting their names and identification numbers. The video showed one officer responding to a student by threatening that the student would "get Tased too." At this point, the officer was still holding a Taser.

This is my favorite part.