Was the Apostle Paul Gay?????

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joyfulgirl said:


It wasn't until I started studying other religions and esoteric spiritual paths that I began to understand the Bible better. One interpretation is that the 7 days of Genesis has its roots in what Hindus call Yugas, or vast cycles of time. In their cycles of time 1 day is 4,320,000 years, so 7 days would be 30,024,000,000 years. This would make the 7 days make more sense in terms of evolution.


right. and my rememberance from this bible story is not only an explanation of the beginning of the world but also why we have 7 days in a week and why we're supposed to rest on the seventh.

no literalness as far as the eye can see -- expanations for natural and human behavior.

not that anyone on FYM is about this, but there's recently been some, uh, *discussion* about the age of the Grand Canyon. there's now a book available called "Grand Canyon: A Different View," by Colorado River guide Tom Vail. it asserts that the canyon was formed by the Old Testament flood, the one Noah's Ark survived, and can be no older than a few thousand years. Vail writes in the introduction: "For years, as a Colorado River guide I told people how the Grand Canyon was formed over the evolutionary time scale of millions of years. Then I met the Lord. Now, I have a different view of the canyon, which according to a biblical time scale, can't possibly be more than a few thousand years old."

my mind doesn't understand this. not one bit. he's perfectly free to say whatever he wants, i'm also perfectly free to call his view idiotic.
 
Biblical interpretation for a "literal" seven days (measured in our time, not God - who exists outside of time) and the direct geneology interpretations are held by a small minority of Christians.
 
so ... why do we not take the literal interpretation of 7 days but we do take the literal interpretation of what is and what isn't 'abominations.'
 
thacraic said:



Just the I for instance, still think it's quite creidble bit. Why?

Carrie

Just for the simple reason that reading the article it makes sense that he could have been gay. None of us will ever know for sure if Paul was gay, but none of us will also ever know for sure that he wasn't. It just seems fairly possible that he was indeed gay.

In some ways, I think the bigger question is, does it matter? If you believe and follow the writings of Paul, does it change anything if he was gay? Maybe it does. :shrug:
 
indra said:


In some ways, I think the bigger question is, does it matter? If you believe and follow the writings of Paul, does it change anything if he was gay? Maybe it does. :shrug:

For me it does. Hypothetically it would be very liberating for me if I were Gay to know that one of the church founders were gay.

That was really the point of the thread.
 
indra said:


Just for the simple reason that reading the article it makes sense that he could have been gay. None of us will ever know for sure if Paul was gay, but none of us will also ever know for sure that he wasn't. It just seems fairly possible that he was indeed gay.

In some ways, I think the bigger question is, does it matter? If you believe and follow the writings of Paul, does it change anything if he was gay? Maybe it does. :shrug:

Hiya Indra,

Yeh I see it as changing things. I think I said it already... that if he was and didn't act on it then no, but he was and engaged in the activity, it would contradict his teachings on it and further undermine everything he wrote about.

See ya..

Carrie
 
thacraic said:

Yeh I see it as changing things. I think I said it already... that if he was and didn't act on it then no, but he was and engaged in the activity, it would contradict his teachings on it and further undermine everything he wrote about.


"engaged in the acivity." what does that mean? are you reducing homosexuality to sheer buggery? is your heterosexuality only about intercourse?

at the end of the day, we're kind of missing the point here -- "gay" and "homosexual" are modern, 100 year old terms that i don't think can be accurately applied to someone writing 2,000 years ago.
 
Irvine511 said:



"engaged in the acivity." what does that mean? are you reducing homosexuality to sheer buggery? is your heterosexuality only about intercourse?

at the end of the day, we're kind of missing the point here -- "gay" and "homosexual" are modern, 100 year old terms that i don't think can be accurately applied to someone writing 2,000 years ago.

Hello Irvine,

Ok, er... HUH???

Yes my hetrosexuality is only about intercourse or the desire to have it. Anyone's sexuality is. That is the point of defining sexuality. Of course, I am talking in terms of the meaning of the word and am not philosiphizing around it.

Now if you catagorize people by their sexuality that is another thing. I do not nor do I identify who I am by my sexuality. My sexuality is only is a part of who I am, not SOLELY who I am.

I probably shouldn't have said if Paul were gay and didn't act on his desires etc.. that was a really poor choice of words and quite misleading as to what I meant.

Let me try to put it this way. If Paul had homosexual thoughts (which I have seen NOTHING to state he has) that in itself wouldn't make him a homosexual . His acting on them would. If he acted on them and began to have desries, or further more have actual intercourse with someone of the same sex that would contradict what he taught in regards to it. Which, by the way, was 2000 years ago and not 100 when these words first entered our vocabulary.

Carrie
 
thacraic said:

Yes my hetrosexuality is only about intercourse or the desire to have it. Anyone's sexuality is. That is the point of defining sexuality. Of course, I am talking in terms of the meaning of the word and am not philosiphizing around it.

Now if you catagorize people by their sexuality that is another thing. I do not nor do I identify who I am by my sexuality. My sexuality is only is a part of who I am, not SOLELY who I am.

I probably shouldn't have said if Paul were gay and didn't act on his desires etc.. that was a really poor choice of words and quite misleading as to what I meant.

Let me try to put it this way. If Paul had homosexual thoughts (which I have seen NOTHING to state he has) that in itself wouldn't make him a homosexual . His acting on them would. If he acted on them and began to have desries, or further more have actual intercourse with someone of the same sex that would contradict what he taught in regards to it. Which, by the way, was 2000 years ago and not 100 when these words first entered our vocabulary.

welll i feel bad for you then. while the root of my sexuality is who i find sexually attractive, it's a much more multi-dimensional thing for me. how you relate to diffrent genders, how capable you are of being vulnerable and loving and open and intimate. that's all tied to my sexuality.

you've also misunderstood what homosexuality is. if you have sexual thoughts and a desire to be physically intimate with and create romantic relationships, this makes you a homosexual. it is something you are, it is not something you do.

finally, you really need to understand that the word "gay" and likewise "homosexual" emerged around the time of the trial of Oscar Wilde -- that was when the "love that dare not speak it's name" was given a face (and a very, very witty spokesman). what passes as modern "gay" life these days did not exist 2000 years ago. what would Jesus or Paul have said to a boring homosexual couple who live in the suburbs, are very much in love, and have been together for 15 years? is it sinful because they have intercourse, as any straight couple would? garbage. love is love, and since homosexuality is as natural and involuntary as heterosexuality, it's flabbergasting when heterosexuals tell homosexuals "just don't act on it" as if it were alcoholism or kleptomania. yes, let's deny people love and relationships, that's surely the Christian thing to do.

it's attitudes like the one above that are, fairly or not, at the root of the Christian stereotype/caricature you objected to earlier -- where you ignore modernity and focus on a few sentences in the bible to understand the world.
 
Irvine511 said:


welll i feel bad for you then. while the root of my sexuality is who i find sexually attractive, it's a much more multi-dimensional thing for me. how you relate to diffrent genders, how capable you are of being vulnerable and loving and open and intimate. that's all tied to my sexuality.

you've also misunderstood what homosexuality is. if you have sexual thoughts and a desire to be physically intimate with and create romantic relationships, this makes you a homosexual. it is something you are, it is not something you do.

finally, you really need to understand that the word "gay" and likewise "homosexual" emerged around the time of the trial of Oscar Wilde -- that was when the "love that dare not speak it's name" was given a face (and a very, very witty spokesman). what passes as modern "gay" life these days did not exist 2000 years ago. what would Jesus or Paul have said to a boring homosexual couple who live in the suburbs, are very much in love, and have been together for 15 years? is it sinful because they have intercourse, as any straight couple would? garbage. love is love, and since homosexuality is as natural and involuntary as heterosexuality, it's flabbergasting when heterosexuals tell homosexuals "just don't act on it" as if it were alcoholism or kleptomania. yes, let's deny people love and relationships, that's surely the Christian thing to do.

it's attitudes like the one above that are, fairly or not, at the root of the Christian stereotype/caricature you objected to earlier -- where you ignore modernity and focus on a few sentences in the bible to understand the world.

Yeh I figured you were philosiphizing around the word as opposed to really speaking of terms of what exactly defines sexuality. In terms of intamcy and how I relate to someone that is more in line with my sensuality.

Sensuality and sexuality are two entirely different things. Sexuality is who you get it on with, sensuality is the manner in which it is done. That is how I see it. As far as how I relate to other genders that has nothing to do with sexuality either. That is to do with who I am as a person (which is an emotional human being with a mind and a heart) and not who I am in my bedroom.

Homosexuality by definition is having desires towards the people of the same sex and furthermore having intercourse with said people based on those desires. Toughts are one thing. A thought occurrs in your mind but letting the grow into desires is a totally different thing.

I really don't need a lesson in etomology Irvine. Furthermore, I am well aware of what occurred during the time of Oscar Wilde seeing as how he is one of my all time favorite playwrights.

Modern gay life as it is today didn't exist 50 years ago much less 2000. It still does not change the relevance of what was written in regards to it. Look if you don't want to believe what it says in the Bible in relation to that, hey man that is up to you. But don't deny what it is saying.

And finally its not my definition of sexuality, it is any standard English dictionary's. I am sure you have one lying around seeing as how you seem to be so well-versed in word origins.
 
Dreadsox said:


For me it does. Hypothetically it would be very liberating for me if I were Gay to know that one of the church founders were gay.

That was really the point of the thread.

Okay, but if you take Paul's words from 1 Cor 11 where, after running down the infamous list of those who would not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, he says, "such *were* some of you," then -- if you accept the hypothesis that Paul was gay -- wouldn't it better to classify Paul as ex-Gay? That is, someone whose identity was transformed due to his relationship with Christ?

It's also pretty clear from Paul's own writings that he had chosen the celibate life -- as he says elsewhere when exhorting people to say single for service to God, "I wish you all were as I am -- but it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

So I'm not sure where the debate over Paul's sexuality doesn't take you back to the same place in the end.
 
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If you believe that someone can become ex-gay I suppose. Paul didn't say that he had though. Chosing a life of celibacy does not demonstrate becoming ex-anything.
 
thacraic said:



Modern gay life as it is today didn't exist 50 years ago much less 2000. It still does not change the relevance of what was written in regards to it. Look if you don't want to believe what it says in the Bible in relation to that, hey man that is up to you. But don't deny what it is saying.

What do you mean exactly by modern gay life? That there weren't homosexuals 50 years ago or that they just weren't out of the closet and on TV?

Oh and I love how you hold the authority of scripture interpretation. That's lovely:| .
 
thacraic said:
Sensuality and sexuality are two entirely different things. Sexuality is who you get it on with, sensuality is the manner in which it is done. That is how I see it. As far as how I relate to other genders that has nothing to do with sexuality either. That is to do with who I am as a person (which is an emotional human being with a mind and a heart) and not who I am in my bedroom.

Homosexuality by definition is having desires towards the people of the same sex and furthermore having intercourse with said people based on those desires. Toughts are one thing. A thought occurrs in your mind but letting the grow into desires is a totally different thing.

I really don't need a lesson in etomology Irvine. Furthermore, I am well aware of what occurred during the time of Oscar Wilde seeing as how he is one of my all time favorite playwrights.

Modern gay life as it is today didn't exist 50 years ago much less 2000. It still does not change the relevance of what was written in regards to it. Look if you don't want to believe what it says in the Bible in relation to that, hey man that is up to you. But don't deny what it is saying.

And finally its not my definition of sexuality, it is any standard English dictionary's. I am sure you have one lying around seeing as how you seem to be so well-versed in word origins.


well, based upon the above, you evidently do need a lesson in understanding personal, social and political contexts of words, which is the definition of ETYMOLOGY: The origin and historical development of a linguistic form as shown by determining its basic elements, earliest known use, and changes in form and meaning, tracing its transmission from one language to another, identifying its cognates in other languages, and reconstructing its ancestral form where possible.

i understand it's much easier to reduce people into "acts" when presented with a reality that doesn't lend itslef into tidy little boxes and easy labels. however, sexuality, to most people, is a multidiemsnional thing, it is not simply about who i get off with. sex is a very sensual experience, so it makes further sense that you can't extricate one from the other; you may have a sensual experience that isn't sexual, but it's hard to have a sexual experience that isn't sensual. certainly, sex is a large part of any adult relationship, but it stands to reason that you love those with whom you are physically intimate in a way totally unique from even the most profound of friends.

now, let's leave aside the demeaning reduction of homosexuality to a sexual act. you claim, and it does seem textually substantiated in the Bible, that homosexuality is a sin -- it's something bad that a person freely chooses to do, like, say, steal. the question begged, of course, is why same-gender sexual acts are wrong in the first place. in the case of, say, kleptomania it's a no-brainer: someone else is injured directly by your actions; they're robbed. but, in the case of homosexual acts, where two consenting adults are engaged in a private activity, no one is injured. the opposite: someone, often an outcast, a historically despised minority, is loved.

"just say no to acting on your thoughts," appears to be the Church's message. so what is a homosexual to do? must i live denied, because of something i cannot change, a unitive sexual act? i cannot love a woman in the way that i can love a man. would you have me excluded from a loving relationship -- for no fault of my own -- and doomed to a loveless life as a result? no one should be singled out and stigmatized for something he cannot change, especially if that something is already a source of pain and struggle. how Christian. :|

finally, your "modern gay life" thing. how quaint. homosexuals have been around forever. men have loved men, men have fucked men (and same with women) forever (since you seem preoccupied with copulation as central to the identity of a homosexual). what is new is that homosexuals can now live lives of dignity and respect because society has changed. it is understood that homosexuality isn't an illness, isn't an uncontrolable impulse that flows from "thoughts," but utterly involuntary, natural, and as central to an individual's understanding of himself and the world as the heterosexual's sense of being heterosexual.

what we are all arguing is that since a modern understanding of homosexual came about 100 years ago, Paul could not have been talking about what i've spend several paragraphs elucidating. i'm fully willing to forgive Paul's (and The Bible's) ignorance on this matter.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


What do you mean exactly by modern gay life? That there weren't homosexuals 50 years ago or that they just weren't out of the closet and on TV?

Oh and I love how you hold the authority of scripture interpretation. That's lovely:| .

Modern gay life was in reference to Irvine commenting on differences of people in homosexual relationship in Paul's day versus those in modern society. He is the one that brought it up, I am the one that agreed.

Things are differnt now than 2000 years ago. Things are different now than they are 50 years ago. That is to do with the social acceptance of homosexuality. In truth I could care less if people want to do whatever they want to do. It is NONE of my business. The only reason I am even discussing this is because this thread pertains to it. It is really something of little consequence in my daily life.

BUT.... I still have the freedom to BELIEVE what is in the BIBLE. And the Bible I read states that it is wrong. And what are you on about now anyway with the "authority of scripture bit". I mean this is just too much. Do you mean how I view what is written?

So lemme get this straight, I have a view of scripture and debate it which means that I am saying I have authrotiy. You have a view of Scripture that conflicts with mine and you are doing what? You are saying what? You are saying that the way I view things is WRONG. With what AUTHORITY are you doing that?
 
thacraic said:


BUT.... I still have the freedom to BELIEVE what is in the BIBLE. And the Bible I read states that it is wrong. And what are you on about now anyway with the "authority of scripture bit". I mean this is just too much. Do you mean how I view what is written?

So lemme get this straight, I have a view of scripture and debate it which means that I am saying I have authrotiy. You have a view of Scripture that conflicts with mine and you are doing what? You are saying what? You are saying that the way I view things is WRONG. With what AUTHORITY are you doing that?

You have every right to that view. I just don't appreciate you keep saying "if you don't want believe in what the Bible says..." I along with many others don't view that as God's doctrine rather it is a human doctrine that made it into the Bible. You say it as if there is no question as to the authority of these scriptures. In fact these are some of the most questionable scriptures in the Bible and have been for many many years by many theologians and interpreters.
 
Irvine511 said:



well, based upon the above, you evidently do need a lesson in understanding personal, social and political contexts of words, which is the definition of ETYMOLOGY: The origin and historical development of a linguistic form as shown by determining its basic elements, earliest known use, and changes in form and meaning, tracing its transmission from one language to another, identifying its cognates in other languages, and reconstructing its ancestral form where possible.

i understand it's much easier to reduce people into "acts" when presented with a reality that doesn't lend itslef into tidy little boxes and easy labels. however, sexuality, to most people, is a multidiemsnional thing, it is not simply about who i get off with. sex is a very sensual experience, so it makes further sense that you can't extricate one from the other; you may have a sensual experience that isn't sexual, but it's hard to have a sexual experience that isn't sensual. certainly, sex is a large part of any adult relationship, but it stands to reason that you love those with whom you are physically intimate in a way totally unique from even the most profound of friends.

now, let's leave aside the demeaning reduction of homosexuality to a sexual act. you claim, and it does seem textually substantiated in the Bible, that homosexuality is a sin -- it's something bad that a person freely chooses to do, like, say, steal. the question begged, of course, is why same-gender sexual acts are wrong in the first place. in the case of, say, kleptomania it's a no-brainer: someone else is injured directly by your actions; they're robbed. but, in the case of homosexual acts, where two consenting adults are engaged in a private activity, no one is injured. the opposite: someone, often an outcast, a historically despised minority, is loved.

"just say no to acting on your thoughts," appears to be the Church's message. so what is a homosexual to do? must i live denied, because of something i cannot change, a unitive sexual act? i cannot love a woman in the way that i can love a man. would you have me excluded from a loving relationship -- for no fault of my own -- and doomed to a loveless life as a result? no one should be singled out and stigmatized for something he cannot change, especially if that something is already a source of pain and struggle. how Christian. :|

finally, your "modern gay life" thing. how quaint. homosexuals have been around forever. men have loved men, men have fucked men (and same with women) forever (since you seem preoccupied with copulation as central to the identity of a homosexual). what is new is that homosexuals can now live lives of dignity and respect because society has changed. it is understood that homosexuality isn't an illness, isn't an uncontrolable impulse that flows from "thoughts," but utterly involuntary, natural, and as central to an individual's understanding of himself and the world as the heterosexual's sense of being heterosexual.

what we are all arguing is that since a modern understanding of homosexual came about 100 years ago, Paul could not have been talking about what i've spend several paragraphs elucidating. i'm fully willing to forgive Paul's (and The Bible's) ignorance on this matter.

Hello Irvine,

Are you reading what I say in my posts? Are you reading what you say in your posts?? I stated that sexuality and sensuality are entirely two different things. What is so difficult about understanding that? I reduced it to simplistic terms by saying, sexuality is who you get it on with and sensuality is the manner in which you do it. How can you argue that? It is true. This isn't picking apart scripture here and debating on who wrote it, and whether or not it is it relevant. These are every day words possessing clear cut meanings and you are finding a way to argue it?

Sex is not always a sensual experience, I have to say. People that are raped, would not consider it sensual. And what about the cliche of " I just wished they would get it over with". That denotes sexual experiences that are not at all sensual.

I am not the one that is reducing people to acts. I have already said that in addressing your question to me on my heterosexuality. In case you missed it, which evidentally you did, I do not identify myself or others by sexuality. That is a part of who I am but there is much much more to me than that. I will say that who I am defines my sensuality, that is for ceratin.

Furthermore, I do not classify people by what they do in their bedrooms. I don't classify people full stop. I deal with people that I encounter in my life on a one to one basis. When I meet a black woman, I do not see a group I see a person. When I meet a gay man, again, I see a person. That is just how I live my life and relate to people on a daily basis.

People have understood what homosexuality is for well over 100 years. People have viewed it as wrong, people have viewed it as right, people have viewed it as though they could care less, for hundreds of years, and this includes homosexuals in long term relationship, that is not some new "modern" thing.

But to address your question of why does it say it is wrong? I honestly don't know why other than to say, it is displeasing to God. Why is it displeasing to God? That is where one, if they are not careful, could get into stating personal opinions. All I can offer is what the Bible says Irvine. If you don't like it, I can't force you to nor would I try.

Like I said earlier, if you do not want to accept what the Bible says in regards to it, then don't. God doesn't even force people to listen to Him so who am I to try to do it? Also, who is trying to force you to love a woman if you feel you can't? Are you concerned about it being wrong because you love a man? I mean is it something that weighs heavy on your heart? Are you feeling guilty or something? If any of that is the case then I would suggest you stop arguing with people that can only provide a human understanding of it and ask God directly.

If it boils down to your just being angry about the way people view what you do then there is not much that can be done about that. I am sure there are people out there that may disapprove of what my husband and I do in our bedroom (or bathroom, or kitchen or on the washing machine....hehehehe) but it doesn't phase me in the least.

If I weren't a Christian and I lived my life in a manner that Christians saw unfit I would just say bugger off and leave it at that. But if something they said struck a chord in me and I couldn't shake it then I would address that and see where it led me.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


You have every right to that view. I just don't appreciate you keep saying "if you don't want believe in what the Bible says..." I along with many others don't view that as God's doctrine rather it is a human doctrine that made it into the Bible. You say it as if there is no question as to the authority of these scriptures. In fact these are some of the most questionable scriptures in the Bible and have been for many many years by many theologians and interpreters.


Of course I say it as there is no question to the authority of these Scriptures because that is how I view it and the amount of people that do not view it as such is of no consequence to me. I mean is it supposed to change my view of it because you are on the other side of my argument saying "It's not God's word its man's"? Does my saying it is change your view? No.

So I will continue to embrace my right to view the Bible as God word and furtherstill my right to freely state my view that it is.
 
thacraic said:



Of course I say it as there is no question to the authority of these Scriptures because that is how I view it and the amount of people that do not view it as such is of no consequence to me. I mean is it supposed to change my view of it because you are on the other side of my argument saying "It's not God's word its man's"? Does my saying it is change your view? No.

So I will continue to embrace my right to view the Bible as God word and furtherstill my right to freely state my view that it is.

Yes state it all you want. Just don't get holier than thou and tell me or anyone else they aren't following what's written in the Bible.
 
The difference between homosexual monogamy now and homosexual monogamy 100 years ago is as plain as day.

Today it is acceptable to talk about it.
Today it is possible for homosexuals to marry.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Boys relax now if only we could get this thread deemed a church.....

"As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?" (1 Cor. 14:33b-36 NIV).

:wink:
 
Or maybe women should wear veils, there is biblical reference in the old testament and new that women should where veils. It is backed between the olf and new testament.:wink:
 
thacraic said:
Are you reading what I say in my posts? Are you reading what you say in your posts?? I stated that sexuality and sensuality are entirely two different things. What is so difficult about understanding that? I reduced it to simplistic terms by saying, sexuality is who you get it on with and sensuality is the manner in which you do it. How can you argue that? It is true. This isn't picking apart scripture here and debating on who wrote it, and whether or not it is it relevant. These are every day words possessing clear cut meanings and you are finding a way to argue it? Sex is not always a sensual experience, I have to say. People that are raped, would not consider it sensual. And what about the cliche of " I just wished they would get it over with". That denotes sexual experiences that are not at all sensual. I am not the one that is reducing people to acts. I have already said that in addressing your question to me on my heterosexuality. In case you missed it, which evidentally you did, I do not identify myself or others by sexuality. That is a part of who I am but there is much much more to me than that. I will say that who I am defines my sensuality, that is for ceratin.

Furthermore, I do not classify people by what they do in their bedrooms. I don't classify people full stop. I deal with people that I encounter in my life on a one to one basis. When I meet a black woman, I do not see a group I see a person. When I meet a gay man, again, I see a person. That is just how I live my life and relate to people on a daily basis.

People have understood what homosexuality is for well over 100 years. People have viewed it as wrong, people have viewed it as right, people have viewed it as though they could care less, for hundreds of years, and this includes homosexuals in long term relationship, that is not some new "modern" thing.

But to address your question of why does it say it is wrong? I honestly don't know why other than to say, it is displeasing to God. Why is it displeasing to God? That is where one, if they are not careful, could get into stating personal opinions. All I can offer is what the Bible says Irvine. If you don't like it, I can't force you to nor would I try.

Like I said earlier, if you do not want to accept what the Bible says in regards to it, then don't. God doesn't even force people to listen to Him so who am I to try to do it? Also, who is trying to force you to love a woman if you feel you can't? Are you concerned about it being wrong because you love a man? I mean is it something that weighs heavy on your heart? Are you feeling guilty or something? If any of that is the case then I would suggest you stop arguing with people that can only provide a human understanding of it and ask God directly.

If it boils down to your just being angry about the way people view what you do then there is not much that can be done about that. I am sure there are people out there that may disapprove of what my husband and I do in our bedroom (or bathroom, or kitchen or on the washing machine....hehehehe) but it doesn't phase me in the least.

If I weren't a Christian and I lived my life in a manner that Christians saw unfit I would just say bugger off and leave it at that. But if something they said struck a chord in me and I couldn't shake it then I would address that and see where it led me.

i'll repeat: your distinction between the two is wrong. sex is by definition sensual. do you not relate to men differently than you do to women? are there not gender differences that you respond to in different ways? your rather crazy references to "rape" as a non-sensual experience, well, rape isn't sex, last time i checked, rape is a crime. it doesn't qualify as sex because it's about violence and power and control. all non-sexy things. it denotes them experiences independent of sex.

what's this "i-know-you-are-but-what-am-i" language? the rest of it is devoid of any logic. and, it doesn't matter whether or not you relate to someone as a homosexual, Indian, or handicapped person. the fact is, they are much more aware of their "difference" than you, as the member of a majority, ever would be. have you any idea the privilege you have to talk about the whole "colorblind" "people are people" attitude? that's because you dont have to live with difference, those who are different are living in a very different reality.

you only think you don't judge. those you're judging know better.
men sleeping with men has been around since there were men; men living with, buildling relationships with, and professing to be the partner of one another is a very, very new thing, and has only enjoyed social notice and, sometimes, approval in the last 10 years. it's not the length of the relationship, but the public recongition of it as worthy is something very, very new.

how do you know what God says displeases him? does he phone you regularly? and notice how you refer to me as somethiing of a petulant child who better one day understand that "father [the bible/god] knows best." but, hey, you're onto something!

again, that direct line. tell me, do you have God's cell? and, oh, you're so humble. and righteous. and that smug sanctimony that drives anyone who doesn't ascribe to your convenient sense of propriety that drives anyon who's a little bit different nuts.

you and your husband can do things 10x more deviant than anything i did last night, and you'll still get 1049 tax breaks more than i will.

yes, you do know best. come, teach me. be God's conduit.
 
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Dread you rock!
you_rock.jpg
 
But lets go back a bit shall we?

I Cor. 6:9-10
"... Neither the "porniea"nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor "malakoi" nor "arsenokoitai" nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

I Tim. 1:9-10
"We also know that the law is made not for good men but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers and mothers, for murderers, for male prostitutes and "arsenokoitai", for slave traders and liars and perjurers."
 
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Paul's views on women in the church could have been a societal thing. With that said, I don't see how he was any less of a missionary than James, unless you really think he was insane.
 
No way, it can't be a societal thing, it is the Word. Mans personal biases could not be a part of the Word.
 
Dreadsox said:
No way, it can't be a societal thing, it is the Word. Mans personal biases could not be a part of the Word.
You do have to decide that yourself sometimes. I doubt he was gay, I'm not convinced at all.
 
Macfistowannabe said:
I doubt he was gay, I'm not convinced at all.

Why? Do we assume he's straight until proven otherwise? Or does God not work through gay people? I'm just asking. The theory is nothing but that, a theory. I admit there's not enough there to say he is, but there is enough there to ask.

But there's a lot there to say the shit about homosexuality being an abomination may be wrong. Dread has done a great job showing us the true facts.
 
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Acts of John

[Q]You who delight in gold and ivory and jewels, do you see your loved (possessions) when night comes on? And you who give way to soft clothing, and then depart from life, will these things be useful in the place where you are going? And let the murderer know that the punishment he has earned awaits him in double measure after he leaves this (world). So also the poisoner, sorcerer, robber, swindler, and arsenokoités, the thief and all of this band. ...So, men of Ephesus, change your ways; for you know this also, that kings, rulers, tyrants, boasters, and warmongers shall go naked from this world and come to eternal misery and torment [/Q]


or the Sibylline Oracle 2.70-77.10

[Q](Never accept in your hand a gift which derives from unjust deeds.)
Do not steal seeds. Whoever takes for himself is accursed (to generations of generations, to the scattering of life.
Do not arsenokoitein, do not betray information, do not murder.) Give one who has labored his wage. Do not oppress a poor man. Take heed of your speech. Keep a secret matter in your heart. (Make provision for orphans and widows and those in need.)
Do not be willing to act unjustly, and therefore do not give leave to one who is acting unjustly.[/Q]

Curious that these equally old texts use the same word as Paul, but in a list of economic "sins" if I may call them that.

I wonder if it means having sex with male prostitutes.....hmmm....
 
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