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Old 12-09-2004, 08:57 AM   #61
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
I know there are some theologians that almost dismiss Paul all together. His lack of detail about Jesus' life like most of the other books, his miracles, his parables, etc. His writings don't line up with most of the others and there are major details missing that many don't find Paul to be a reliable source whatsoever.
But was Paul's job to provide a biography of Jesus, or was Paul's calling to interpret Jesus' significance in history? The one is not like the other. If I'm writing a missive on Bill Clinton's foreign policies, I'm not going to waste time talking about Bill's childhood.
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Old 12-09-2004, 08:59 AM   #62
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According to St. Paul women should not be allowed to speak in the church.

How is this a distortion of scripture being used to keep woman from being ordained?

I will concede the segregation issue.

But clearly Spong is in the excerpt, making the point that Paul's words set a tradition for women in the church, yet we have come through as believers willing to look at that scripture and decide it not to be valid. Women are preachers, and priests.

If we are to look at Paul and say, he was writing a a different time and his views of women are outdated, why then is it BS for Bishop Spong to examine homosexuality, where two people LOVE each other and are not promisuously running around like tramps, as outdated?
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Old 12-09-2004, 09:06 AM   #63
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Originally posted by Irvine511


the idea of "disagreeing" with homosexuality is intellectually undefensible. it's like "disagreeing" with being left handed. homosexuals are, they always have been, and always will be. and, i would argue, the basis of "disagreement" come from a history of discrimination and willful misunderstanding and misrepresentation based upon an arbitrary -- i.e., religious -- basis.
Okay, but as queer/transgendered students at college used to remind me, homosexuality cannot be divorced from its activity, for the very definition of a homosexual person is someone who engages in homosexual activity. So if I believe homosexual activity is harmful and self-destructive, I must also be then said to disagree with homosexuality, mustn't I?

The question remains the same. If I disagree with homosexual activity, can I do so without fearing it?

This is all a bit off-topic. It is, however, related to a different thread rumbling around here somewhere...the fellow who wrote the article in Christianity Today, if I'm not mistaken.
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Old 12-09-2004, 09:07 AM   #64
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


The statement was:



That is misleading at best. The verses cited regarding homosexuality used to maintain segregation? Spong's statement, without support, is reckless.


But, yes, people misuse Scripture. And issues like segregation run contrary to Scripture

Nbcrusader.......I really enjoy your posts. Very insightful (and I'm not being sarcastic). Go Trojans !!!
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Old 12-09-2004, 09:10 AM   #65
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Originally posted by nathan1977


Okay, but as queer/transgendered students at college used to remind me, homosexuality cannot be divorced from its activity, for the very definition of a homosexual person is someone who engages in homosexual activity. So if I believe homosexual activity is harmful and self-destructive, I must also be then said to disagree with homosexuality, mustn't I?

The question remains the same. If I disagree with homosexual activity, can I do so without fearing it?

This is all a bit off-topic. It is, however, related to a different thread rumbling around here somewhere...the fellow who wrote the article in Christianity Today, if I'm not mistaken.

what is the basis of your stated belief that homosexual activity is harmful and self-destructive?

i'm going to leave aside the fact that you've reduced what homosexuals do down to a single sexual act, and let you respond.

while your friends are right, part of being homosexual is engaging in homosexual "acts," that's a very flat, almost dehumanizing standard upon which to base membership in a particular group. is your (i assume) heterosexuality predicated only upon sex? or are you attracted to the opposite sex for a variety of interpersonal reasons that enable you to create a relationship different from your platonic, same-sex friends?
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Old 12-09-2004, 09:23 AM   #66
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I would recommend When Harry Met Sally. It sums up platonic relationships nicely.

If we look at the Roman Culture that Paul was living in, at the time, the behavior of the Romans was scary. Look at what the emporers were doing. My goodness I would expect Paul to be writing what he wrote. The Emporers as my target example here, Nero and Caligula, were not exactly engaging in the act of sex in what I would call a healty way. Certainly not the kind of loving relationship that grows with intimacy. Wouldn't you expect Paul to react that way towards the act of homosexual sex.

My point, Paul was not confronted with where we are today, people who love each other and want to engage in the marriage contract of a commited relationship. As many have pointed out, there was not a word that meant homosexual in the language at the time. Do you think the concept of gay marriage was even thought of? There is absolutely no frame of reference for the writings to even come close to facing this concept.

Finally, if the homosexual population has been fighting to escape the stigma of the culture of promiscuity shouldn't we as a society embrace a way from them to do this. By recognizing gay marriage. For me what is the bigger problem, people having multiple partners, or people in commited relationships. Not that marriage stops someone from being promiscuous, but where in history have there been homosexual role models on healthy relationships.

How can we take Paul's words, written at a completely different cultural time, and use them to make this judgement?
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Old 12-09-2004, 09:28 AM   #67
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Irvine511, you're right —*people are more than their sexual identity and this is something some Christians have a problem understanding. Those of us who are Christians are coming from the perspective of the Bible, which clearly states homosexuality is a sin. Even Paul said this in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. It's in Romans too — 1:18-32. Even the old testament says it's wrong. Now, I've read a lot of your statements and I see where you're coming from. And this whole issue is a mystery and all of this debate is healthy. Those of us who are Christians are simply using the Bible as our foundation for this. I'm more willing to go with what the Bible says (of course, always humbly seeking its truth, and not a crappy interpretation of it) than anything else. I know that sounds dangerous to you, but if it is God's word, inspired by our creator himself, I'm willing to trust what he says on certain issues. Nothing in the Bible has been proven wrong! It's that simple. To get back to the original point of the thread. I doubt Paul was gay, I think that's someone reading into it too much. Having said that, if it were true, it would just add to the power of the Gospel and add to the point that homosexuality is a sin. Paul himself said this! The thing to always remember is that God loves homosexuals as much as the rest of us and he wants them to stop sinning like he wants us all to —*so we can live the life he intended us to live.
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Old 12-09-2004, 09:33 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

what is the basis of your stated belief that homosexual activity is harmful and self-destructive?
Holding the hand of a friend who is dying of AIDS who knows that he got it from living a wild life that he loved when he was in it, but regretted later. Statistically speaking, gay men are still the dominant "at-risk" group in America for AIDS -- and after years in the 90s when the number decreased due to medications, that number is on the rise again. This I am sure you know.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

while your friends are right, part of being homosexual is engaging in homosexual "acts," that's a very flat, almost dehumanizing standard upon which to base membership in a particular group.
That may be, but it's the standard they identify, and they are not alone amongst queer culture. Granted, while the sample of a radical queer campus group on one of the country's most radical colleges is not a representative sample, there is at least a minority in queer thinking that identifies sexual activity as the driving force of identity.
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Old 12-09-2004, 09:36 AM   #69
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[Q]Those of us who are Christians are coming from the perspective of the Bible, which clearly states homosexuality is a sin.[/Q]

By this statement can it be inferred that because I believe homosexuals can be in a monogomous loving healthy relationship that I am not a Christian?
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Old 12-09-2004, 09:37 AM   #70
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Please tell me we do not still believe that AIDS is a GAY disease?
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Old 12-09-2004, 09:38 AM   #71
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[Q]Nothing in the Bible has been proven wrong! It's that simple. [/Q]

Depends, if you take it literally, absulutely things can be proven wrong.
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Old 12-09-2004, 09:39 AM   #72
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[Q]Those of us who are Christians are coming from the perspective of the Bible, which clearly states homosexuality is a sin. Even Paul said this in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. It's in Romans too — 1:18-32. [/Q]

It most certainly did not use the words you use...it was in Greek,
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Old 12-09-2004, 09:40 AM   #73
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Dreadsox, i respect you tremendously, but to say the Bible is out of touch, therefore we should allow gay marriage is kind of a weak argument. Maybe a single word for homosexuality didn't exist at the time, but so what! It's obvious a concept or phrase or something did becuase it's in the Bible mutliple times, said differently. The phrase "A man should not lie with another man, it is an abomination." Is pretty freaking clear to me. To say that means something other than homosexuality is a sin is ridiculous. And of course gay marriage wasn't though of, any form of sexual sin completely goes against the concept of marriage. The Bible's clear about this too!
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Old 12-09-2004, 09:41 AM   #74
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SO women should not be allowed to speak in church?

Because clearly, as a Christian who believes in the in the Bible, Paul makes reference to this. Since all Christians believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God and everything in it must be followed.
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Old 12-09-2004, 09:42 AM   #75
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You're right it was in Greek. And your point is?
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