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Old 12-13-2004, 01:10 PM   #241
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
some thoughts on Sodomy by someone much more knowledgeable about this than i -- andrew sullivan, gay, conservative, catholic, and british. some excerpts from a very long essay written a few years ago:
Brilliant. Sullivan is one brilliant man.
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Old 12-13-2004, 01:55 PM   #242
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sullivan can be maddening -- he just *loves* the Iraq war, and there's something a little weird about a conservative, libertarian, Englishman being the annointed voice of gay America -- but he's a real thinker, and is my second favorite Brit-in-DC after Hitchens, and believe me i've seen both men at bars. one day, i'm going to produce a talk show with the two men as hosts, and they'll get to drink the whole time. i can just see the insults -- "Hitch, you drunken sod!" "Andrew, you overweight queen!"

i'm telling you, it'll be great.

on a more serious note, i can post the whole thing, but it is substantial. if there are any requests, i'll do so.

or you can google "Andrew Sullivan" "we are all sodomites now" and you should be able to pull it up.
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Old 12-13-2004, 01:57 PM   #243
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Romans Chapter One apparently says that God turned people into homosexuals because they were not faithful to him?

AM I reading it wrong?
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Old 12-13-2004, 02:12 PM   #244
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Originally posted by Irvine511
sullivan can be maddening -- he just *loves* the Iraq war, and there's something a little weird about a conservative, libertarian, Englishman being the annointed voice of gay America -- but he's a real thinker, and is my second favorite Brit-in-DC after Hitchens, and believe me i've seen both men at bars. one day, i'm going to produce a talk show with the two men as hosts, and they'll get to drink the whole time. i can just see the insults -- "Hitch, you drunken sod!" "Andrew, you overweight queen!"

i'm telling you, it'll be great.
Oh, believe me, I find Sullivan maddening, too, as is Hitchens. But they're both still brilliant thinkers. I've met Hitchens and seen him shitfaced onstage. He seems to have gone off the deep end lately and his muckraking gets tiresome. But Sullivan always makes me think and even when I disagree with him, it's obvious he's sincere and has put great thought into it. He's an independent thinker and that's what I like about him.
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Old 12-13-2004, 02:18 PM   #245
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Originally posted by joyfulgirl


Oh, believe me, I find Sullivan maddening, too, as is Hitchens. But they're both still brilliant thinkers. I've met Hitchens and seen him shitfaced onstage. He seems to have gone off the deep end lately and his muckraking gets tiresome. But Sullivan always makes me think and even when I disagree with him, it's obvious he's sincere and has put great thought into it. He's an independent thinker and that's what I like about him.

ditto. sullivan's blog is fascinating, because you can watch him work out issues over the course of a week. i disagree with him a good 50% of the time, and there's an element of careerism to his skillful positioning of himself as a "gay conservative" -- but i find this applies less now than 10 years ago when he was making a name for himself.

i also hear fun gossip about him. but that's for another time.

but would you watch my talk show? Hitch vs. Sully.
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Old 12-13-2004, 02:23 PM   #246
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but would you watch my talk show? Hitch vs. Sully.
With popcorn!!!
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Old 12-13-2004, 02:25 PM   #247
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With popcorn!!!

three parts Jack, one part Coke for me.
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Old 12-13-2004, 03:21 PM   #248
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Originally posted by Irvine511



three parts Jack, one part Coke for me.
Well in that case, I'm lightin' up a fatty.

Ahem! Okay, back on track. Now, about that gay apostle...
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Old 12-13-2004, 04:34 PM   #249
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Paul spent his entire life studying the law, being a missionary and getting thrown into jail. Probably he just didn't get to talk to women much.
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Old 12-13-2004, 04:55 PM   #250
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
Barely functioning here...

Romans Chapter One apparently says that God turned people into homosexuals because they were not faithful to him?

AM I reading it wrong?
Hiya Dread,

In reponse to your earlier post.. no thank you for the fine debate. Very enjoyable and challanging.

I do not see Romans 1 showing how God "turned people gay". It says as a result of the corruption in a society, and the people in said society rejecting the truth of God that He then gave them over to their shameful lusts etc. That latter being the product of the former.

This is not unlike what happened in Sodom. Because of the gross corruption of that society it led to numerous sins. I thought I said that when I said that the actions were manifested as a result of the corruption of the society within Sodom.

The specific actions that are written about are that of them wanting to have sex with the angels who visited Lot. Because of that, the definition of sodomy was born. I don't believe that Sodom was destroyed simply because of the homosexual population which resided there. It runs much deeper than that.

It creeps me out that Lot offered up his daughters in place of these angels visting him. I do not see however how God viewed that favorably. I think that Lot and his family being spared had more to do with Lot being related to Abraham then it did with his being holy and pure. It says that "God remembered Abraham" and brought Lot out safely. I do not think Lot is what anyone would deem a "patriarch of the faith". The story of Lot has more to do with the city in which he lived than it does with Lot himself.

Are far as Lot's freaky-deaky daughters, their reasoning was they could protect the family line by getting pregnant by their father. (Can I get an EWWWWW?!) The first night the eldest daughter got him liquored up to the point of where he didn't know what was happening and then proceeded to you know... well. The next day this daughter told the youngest daughter what she had done and suggested she do the same. Same thing happened.

It is written in a very matter of fact way. His daughters got him liquored up, banged him, (two nights in a row, no less) and Lot was none the wiser. In this passage there is n mention of any due penality they recieved for this sin, however I am going to say I think, (THINK) don't know for sure, that there is some reference to this elsewhere in the Bible and what they did, is not viewed too favorably. I really don't know though and I'm too tired to look it up at present LOL.

I really hope your migraine subsides. I feel for you. I get one eyeball headache each month, I think you can figure out why, and it is not a pretty scene. I am fortunate however, in that all I need is a verrrrrrry cold rag and verrrrrry dark room and complete silence for half an hour (no more and not a minute less).

Again here's to feeling better soon and I look forward to more of your wonderful and challanging posts.

Carrie
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Old 12-13-2004, 05:26 PM   #251
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Again here's to feeling better soon and I look forward to more of your wonderful and challanging posts.

Carrie
thanks...back to bed....will try later...I promise....I have lass tomorrow night, probably Wednesday.
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Old 12-13-2004, 10:04 PM   #252
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar




I haven't made any personal cheap shots to you or anyone else in here. If you can prove me wrong then please do so and I will openly apologize. I will debate hard with someone, I will pull off the gloves sometimes, but never will I attack someone. And I will debate someone even harder when they hold a weak argument. For this is something that truly bothers me, I have seen people jump through hoops show you post after post of information and facts and you reduce everything they say to an emotional argument. You'll ignore everything this person tells you. That is not how you debate and yes I will call you out on it, but this is not a personal attack.

I have much respect for many people who do not share my opinion in here. I never have called anyone or even hinted to the idea that anyone in here was heartless, mindless, or soulless.
I have also never used the word redneck and never have I called an individual a homophobe for that matter.

I'm sorry if you see my calling a person out on a weak argument as a personal attack. Yes I can get very passionate about that, but never will I call names or dismiss someone's opinion just because it doesn't match mine.
I'll take your word for it, although I did find this kind of stuff a little over the top:

Originally posted by ImOuttaControl
I feel sorry for her loss and am grateful of her sons sacrifice. But, this woman's a loony. This letter wasn't written immediately after his death, it was 7 months after so the woman had a long time to think about it. She throws out these conspiracy theories, which don't help her cause. I just want to know what her son really thought of the war...I mean, he signed up of his own free will and was possibly very proud that he might be doing something to be proud of. Talk about demeaning her sons sacrifice. She would find much more peace of mind if she opened her mind a bit to see the good that her son might have helped to accomplish in Iraq(Women's rights, free elections..ect).

Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Who are you to judge if she's demeaning her son's sacrifice or not. One can argue that she's his mother and probably has a better insight to what his experience was than someone who's at it from a completely partisan manner. Unless you've talked to him and knew where he stood on this war I'd leave it up to those who knew him. So maybe if you opened you mind a little.

Originally posted by ImOuttaControl

Who am I to judge? Maybe she (the mother) doesn't know jack shit about what her son felt about the war and about the things the U.S. is trying to accomplish in Iraq? No offense, but mothers aren't generally the best for "insight to what his experience was." Mothers, as I know from experience, judge from an emotional standpoint. I served in Iraq for a year (got back in June) and my mother really didn't know what I was doing there...she just knew she wanted me home and well.

"So maybe if you opened you mind a little"....well, maybe open your mind to the fact that maybe this mother is using her sons death in a way her son might not approve of. Like I said before: if she wasn't using conspiracy theories and partisan B.S. to try to make her point, I might take it a bit more seriously. Is there PROOF her son disapproved of the war and felt that if he died he would have died for nothing????

Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

You have no idea what conversations went on between mother and son. Believe it on not there are soldiers fighting in Iraq who don't believe in this war. So it sounds like you're the emotional and partisan one. We know where you stand, but you don't know where the son stood, so until you know for sure don't speak or judge on his behalf because it's just sickening.


And then of course, there was this:

Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

The reason I discuss this issue often is to get a different perspective. I believe very strongly that you don't know your own views until you hear everyone else's. I'm not trying to shove an agenda down anyone's throat, I'm trying to ask realistic, valid questions.

Originally posted by BonoVoxSuperstar

You speak one way yet you act the other. You've avoided almost all questions asked of you. People have shown you facts and you accuse them of being charged only of their feelings, and you simply haven't shown any reason why homosexuals should be changed except for your interpretations of the Bible, which you admit may or may not be human doctrine. You can understand why people are upset with you. You say you have no agenda and speak very innocently about wanting the other perspective but you have dismissed almost everyone who doesn't share your opinion. Even when they have facts and life experience that you don't pocess. So instead of preaching to everyone to open their minds maybe you should step back read everything everyone has said, and try to use your own advice to form your own educated opinion.




Probably not everyone is going to say you were giving ImOuttaControl a personal attack, but he did have a firsthand experience in Iraq, which I appreciate his service regardless of who's running the show in DC. I would say he has a valid reason to get tired of the people who claim we're out there dying in vain. Sure, some troops might not like the war - or the president - one bit, but I can't thank them enough for having the balls to serve their country.

No, I've never heard you call anyone names, I respect that, but it seems that any debate can be emotional and partisan, especially the one I just posted. Also, please explain exactly what my "agenda" is. Is my opinion my agenda? People get upset with me because they don't agree with me, and then when I ask them for a factual opinion, they don't always have one. Therefore, I don't add much value to a factless opinion. Why shouldn't I consider it a jump to conclusions? Again, I apologize if I singled you out, but I didn't know how else to tell you. Your style is pretty hot-tempered at times, I just want to inform you of that, and that I'm not necessarily used to that type of style.
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Old 12-13-2004, 10:44 PM   #253
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
I'll take your word for it, although I did find this kind of stuff a little over the top:

Originally posted by ImOuttaControl
I feel sorry for her loss and am grateful of her sons sacrifice. But, this woman's a loony. This letter wasn't written immediately after his death, it was 7 months after so the woman had a long time to think about it. She throws out these conspiracy theories, which don't help her cause. I just want to know what her son really thought of the war...I mean, he signed up of his own free will and was possibly very proud that he might be doing something to be proud of. Talk about demeaning her sons sacrifice. She would find much more peace of mind if she opened her mind a bit to see the good that her son might have helped to accomplish in Iraq(Women's rights, free elections..ect).

Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Who are you to judge if she's demeaning her son's sacrifice or not. One can argue that she's his mother and probably has a better insight to what his experience was than someone who's at it from a completely partisan manner. Unless you've talked to him and knew where he stood on this war I'd leave it up to those who knew him. So maybe if you opened you mind a little.

Originally posted by ImOuttaControl

Who am I to judge? Maybe she (the mother) doesn't know jack shit about what her son felt about the war and about the things the U.S. is trying to accomplish in Iraq? No offense, but mothers aren't generally the best for "insight to what his experience was." Mothers, as I know from experience, judge from an emotional standpoint. I served in Iraq for a year (got back in June) and my mother really didn't know what I was doing there...she just knew she wanted me home and well.

"So maybe if you opened you mind a little"....well, maybe open your mind to the fact that maybe this mother is using her sons death in a way her son might not approve of. Like I said before: if she wasn't using conspiracy theories and partisan B.S. to try to make her point, I might take it a bit more seriously. Is there PROOF her son disapproved of the war and felt that if he died he would have died for nothing????

Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

You have no idea what conversations went on between mother and son. Believe it on not there are soldiers fighting in Iraq who don't believe in this war. So it sounds like you're the emotional and partisan one. We know where you stand, but you don't know where the son stood, so until you know for sure don't speak or judge on his behalf because it's just sickening.


And then of course, there was this:

Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

The reason I discuss this issue often is to get a different perspective. I believe very strongly that you don't know your own views until you hear everyone else's. I'm not trying to shove an agenda down anyone's throat, I'm trying to ask realistic, valid questions.

Originally posted by BonoVoxSuperstar

You speak one way yet you act the other. You've avoided almost all questions asked of you. People have shown you facts and you accuse them of being charged only of their feelings, and you simply haven't shown any reason why homosexuals should be changed except for your interpretations of the Bible, which you admit may or may not be human doctrine. You can understand why people are upset with you. You say you have no agenda and speak very innocently about wanting the other perspective but you have dismissed almost everyone who doesn't share your opinion. Even when they have facts and life experience that you don't pocess. So instead of preaching to everyone to open their minds maybe you should step back read everything everyone has said, and try to use your own advice to form your own educated opinion.




Probably not everyone is going to say you were giving ImOuttaControl a personal attack, but he did have a firsthand experience in Iraq, which I appreciate his service regardless of who's running the show in DC. I would say he has a valid reason to get tired of the people who claim we're out there dying in vain. Sure, some troops might not like the war - or the president - one bit, but I can't thank them enough for having the balls to serve their country.

No, I've never heard you call anyone names, I respect that, but it seems that any debate can be emotional and partisan, especially the one I just posted. Also, please explain exactly what my "agenda" is. Is my opinion my agenda? People get upset with me because they don't agree with me, and then when I ask them for a factual opinion, they don't always have one. Therefore, I don't add much value to a factless opinion. Why shouldn't I consider it a jump to conclusions? Again, I apologize if I singled you out, but I didn't know how else to tell you. Your style is pretty hot-tempered at times, I just want to inform you of that, and that I'm not necessarily used to that type of style.
I stand by everything I said in those posts. You may see that as harsh but when people speak for people they don't know(no matter what their experience), or they completely ignore all the very thoughtout factual evidence given then I call them out on it.

Your agenda? You often ignore and avoid questions, I'm not the only one that sees this. You avoid so that the other side doesn't get explored, yet you say you want to be exposed to all sides.

Look I'm not going to argue with you about this anymore. You've made this too personal. I'm not the only one that sees this, but I may be the only one that calls you out on it. So be it. Like I said yes I will get what you called "hot tempered" but not because they don't have the same view as me, but because they won't truly debate the topic.

Look I appreciate what you bring to this forum when you don't play your games. So please stick with it, just don't ignore the questions and don't make it too personal.
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Old 12-13-2004, 10:47 PM   #254
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After 17 pages of debate, I still come up with the same feeling I did when I first saw the thread title...that's it entirely possible that he was. No person can state unequivocally whether Paul was gay or not, simply because no person will ever know.

It's a fascinating discussion however, in part because it got me thinking about how each person interprets literature, including religious texts. I think, just as a good song has as many meanings as individuals who hear it, good books (even THE "Good Book") has as many meanings as readers. Each person sees everything through a different filter, and so something such as the Bible has as many different meaning as readers.

....well...I thought it was interesting anyway.

Now that my brain has exploded, I'm going to bed.
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Old 12-14-2004, 04:21 AM   #255
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Please do not make this another thread dealing with Gay topics that gets closed guys. PM each other, and I do believe it is against forum rules to bring in quotes from other threads. Come on!!!!!
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