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Old 12-12-2004, 06:21 PM   #211
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Just a question for Dread: Why would God destroy Sodom and Gommorah over how guests were treated?
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Old 12-12-2004, 06:24 PM   #212
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Of course I do, and it's ridiculously high. I've heard divorce being preached in church so much more than homosexuality. I was citing examples about how people get divorces for the wrong reasons. Banning divorce is not the answer, I'm not enforcing that in any way. I'm not sure what I said that made you think that I think divorce is rare.
But banning gay marriage is? This is the point trying to be made. You don't ban something or make an ammendment just because you think it's a sin. If so you'd be adding a lot more ammendments. The church is being hypocritical by chasing gay marriage and not divorce.
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Old 12-12-2004, 06:59 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Just a question for Dread: Why would God destroy Sodom and Gommorah over how guests were treated?
The history of the time period of which the story takes place is one in which the guests or travelers were expected to receive sanctuary as opposed to the treatment that was extended by the people of the city.The SIN of Saddam and Gommorah is not homosexuality. The sin was in the fact that the mob wanted Lot to throw out the two guests to the croud so that they could rape them. Lot, instead offers up his two virgin daughters in place of the guests in his house, the guests to the city.

If the sin were one of sexual behavior, why would God save Lot, someone who offers up his daughters to be raped by the mob? Is this the kind of God you believe in? Then Lot at the end of the story commits and incestuous act with both daughters? These are the people God chose to save?

Does it appear to be about sex, or is it more about these words:

"Come, enter the Kingdom. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was sick and you visited me." Then Jesus will turn to those on His left hand and say, "Depart from me because I was hungry and you did not feed me, I was thirsty and you did not give me to drink, I was sick and you did not visit me." These will ask Him, "When did we see You hungry, or thirsty or sick and did not come to Your help?" And Jesus will answer them, "Whatever you neglected to do unto one of these least of these, you neglected to do unto Me!"
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Old 12-12-2004, 07:05 PM   #214
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i would publically thank Melon for opening my eyes in reference to this particular passage in the Bible.
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Old 12-12-2004, 08:33 PM   #215
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I know it wasn't destroyed over homosexuality alone, there's no way possible, but it could've played a minor role. Their culture was so wicked, so sick, you would have to wonder how screwed up their government was to allow all the wickedness to go on. I will say this though, God may have been a "picker and chooser" in this case, seeing that he chose to save Lot and his family, even though the wicked culture definately influenced them, especially his daughters. Wasn't it his daughters that wanted to, and did, lose their virginity to Lot? I thought they got him drunk.
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Old 12-12-2004, 09:25 PM   #216
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
I know it wasn't destroyed over homosexuality alone, there's no way possible, but it could've played a minor role.
So "could've played a minor role" is the basis for the treatment of gays and lesbians?

Couldn't be the acts of rape on strangers?
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Old 12-12-2004, 09:34 PM   #217
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
I will say this though, God may have been a "picker and chooser" in this case, seeing that he chose to save Lot and his family, even though the wicked culture definately influenced them, especially his daughters. Wasn't it his daughters that wanted to, and did, lose their virginity to Lot? I thought they got him drunk.
If that's what it says, you can certainly tell that part was written by a guy.
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Old 12-12-2004, 09:36 PM   #218
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
So "could've played a minor role" is the basis for the treatment of gays and lesbians?
What treatment? I haven't been kicking anyone around. Those who do mistreat them do not speak for me. I just don't think God would've created women - if you believe that men were intented to live alone.

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Originally posted by Dreadsox
Couldn't be the acts of rape on strangers?
Of course it is! Who here would approve of that? Not me.

Anyways, this thread got way off topic. I'm out of here. Don't bother replying because I don't care. Have fun talking about anything but Paul and how he was supposedly a homosexual.
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Old 12-12-2004, 09:47 PM   #219
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I will remember not to take the time to respond to your questions next time....

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Old 12-12-2004, 09:49 PM   #220
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If that's what it says, you can certainly tell that part was written by a guy.
No kidding......
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Old 12-12-2004, 10:25 PM   #221
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Folks,

If I flipped out, I apologize. I do want to make it clear that I think it's a little hasty to say "don't give me this holier than thou bs" and then I get just that. I can respect your differences of opinion, all I ask is that you respect mine as well.
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Old 12-13-2004, 04:16 AM   #222
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Old 12-13-2004, 04:19 AM   #223
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
What treatment? I haven't been kicking anyone around. Those who do mistreat them do not speak for me. I just don't think God would've created women - if you believe that men were intented to live alone.
You don't have to kick someone around to treat them badly. To tell someone their attraction is a sin, a disease, or whatever your other explanations were is poor treatment. I'm sorry you don't that.

The part about creating women if you believe that men were intended to live alone? What does this have to do with this debate? First of all your focus on just men in this whole debate is very odd. But how does believing that homosexuality is a sin = men were intended to live alone? You lost me on that one.

Quote:
I do want to make it clear that I think it's a little hasty to say "don't give me this holier than thou bs" and then I get just that. I can respect your differences of opinion, all I ask is that you respect mine as well.
I didn't see anyone get "holier than thou" on you. Not even close. Dread went through a lot of research and historical fact to show people that the original texts did not read the way that so many others have interpreted them.

If this scared you and made you question your beliefs then I'm sorry, but it's far from "holier than thou".
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Old 12-13-2004, 06:27 AM   #224
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I think my research weakens the Paul is Gay theory. I do think Paul, being a very devout Jew, was way, way to wrapped up in creating rules and regulations.
I think his background in Judiasm has more to do with this than him being Gay, although, the book really makes a great case.
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Old 12-13-2004, 08:56 AM   #225
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Why didn't Paul use words that someone who spoke Greek at the time, would have used in reference to homosexuality?

Words like:

"erastes," "eromenos," "paedika," "paederastes"

Why did he use a word that appeared in other texts in reference to an economic transaction?
Hiya Dread,

Earasete in ancient greek refered to an older man being involved with a younger man. Ernomenos was the adolescent male he was involved with. Paiderastia and paedika are words which were used to descibe the aforementioned relationship. Do you think that it is possible Paul did not use these words because it only applied to a certain group of people (older men with younger men)? That possibly he was trying to convey that the any act of that kind is wrong? Is it possible that by singling out the paiderastia relationship between and earasete and his ernomenos would have led people to believe that other forms of homosexuality was acceptable? But onto arsenokoites...

In 1 Corn. 6:9 the word arsenokoites is translated as what we would modernly view as homosexual offender.In 1Tim. 1:10 the word translates simply as pervert.

After reasearching these words at length, I can see now see exactly why Paul chose to use them. Thank you for pointing these things out because it was a challange and it prompted to me do something that I haven't done for a while. Study the actual words used in the original text of Scripture. My Greek lexicon needed dusting off.

Now since we are talking about the literal Koine Greek here I would like to address what Paul says in Romans 1:18-32 ( I would recommend reading the entire chapter its is very informative). At any rate, Paul is speaking here of male and female relationships and the distortions of them which come about in a corrupt society.

Paul addresses the nature of the relationshps - the literal nature of them in that he says they are unnatural. He uses the words "para" translated as from, "ho" translated as the and "physis" translated as nature or natural. Para ho physis, or, from the natural. Shorty after that he says something about even men abandoned natural (using the word "physikos" meaning natural, or creatures of instinct) realtionships and were inflamed with lust for one another.

Now clearly these natural relationships of which Paul is speaking, its not that of their being bridge partners. He is speaking in realtion to sexaul and furthermore sensual acts, and he does not speak of them favorably.

Again Dread, I thank you for putting this on the table. I now have, as a result of a few hours of study and an argument with my husband over the time spent on it, a fuller understanding of the text which previously I would not have bothered researching.

Now onto the women being silent behind those pesky veils... next post....
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