War Topic - If you wanna hear another bell...

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Patti Jones

The Fly
Joined
Sep 11, 2001
Messages
74
Location
'round here...
I wont give any opinion, in orther to avoid any discussion, just take a look at this...

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Changing faces of terrorism


By Sayeed Hasan Khan and Kurt Jacobsen


ADMIT it. Doesn't President Bush sound perfectly reasonable when he pleads that the "civilized world" must go beyond crushing bin Laden and his cronies in order to root out terrorists wherever they may lurk? Isn't it terribly hard to resist his righteous call for a global struggle against terrorism, mounting a sort of secular jihad against jihadists? Only spoilsports ask where it will all end. They are much too short-sighted.

Consider that Bush's ambitious anti-terrorist enterprise, if performed with truly ruthless honesty, will prove extremely enlightening for all the rest of us poor citizens who thereby may get some very rare peeks into how power really works. After all, pursuing terrorist trails all the way to their bitter ends (and bitter beginnings) is likely to create a great many acute embarrassments for the very authorities who form the posse chasing vermin.

In international politics, ruled by fickle realpolitik, the posse itself is likely to be made up of many former bandits, suddenly redefined in Oprah-like political "makeovers" as sheriff's deputies so as to serve the latest shift in superpower interests. Behold the fantastic record of an Alice-in-Wonderland world where an enemy is exactly what the US government says one is, nothing more and nothing less - until it says otherwise. In and around Nicaragua in the 1980s Somoza's merrily murderous National Guard, presto, become Ronald Reagan's freedom-fighting Contras.

In Panama Manuel Noriega was a bosum buddy of the USA one year and public enemy number one the next. In the same decade Saddam Hussein was Uncle Sam's esteemed pal, but in the 1990s well, you know the rest. (One of us appeared on BBC Radio in 1988 with an American ambassador who staunchly defended Saddam Hussein.) Likewise, the Mujahideen and their zealous Taliban outgrowth were holy warriors of freedom with whom even Rambo revelled in one decade, and incubators of pure evil the next.

Don't get us wrong about the Soviets, we mean, the Russians and their current warm rapport with America. Weren't they once the malignant force that America feared enough to support the most vicious dictatorships in the name of democratic values?

Nelson Mandela was imprisoned on Robben Island as a terrorist for decades and whatever happened to him? Menachim Begin was blowing up British soldiers in Palestine in the mid-1940s.

The Northern Alliance, though surely welcome allies, are hardly dedicated defenders of democracy and their cruelty in the temporary takeover of Kabul is too well remembered.

A subpoena is pursuing Henry Kissinger, Nobel Peace Prize winner, for his role in the overthrow of Salvador Allende in Chile and, as Christopher Hitchens accuses in a new book, he is implicated in many other state terrorist acts too. Dizzying, isn't it? Blair and Bush claim they are going in to destroy heroin drug traffickers who fund terrorists. Yet, as the Iran-Contra scandal showed, American secret agencies have cultivated the drug trade as a secret revenue source for South-east Asian and then Central American allied forces since the 1950s.

So when is a terrorist (or sponsor of terrorists) not a terrorist (or a sponsor of terrorists)? If we want to punish evil-doers, a consistent and equally applied definition does not seem too much to ask. Noam Chomsky points out that if the US, suppliers of arms to Turks who freely killed Kurds in the 1990s, applied to itself the same legal and ethical criteria that they invoked to intervene in Kosovo, then the US would have to intervene against its own government.

Gerry Adams, president of Sinn Fein, widely regarded as the political wing of the provisional IRA, was no longer a terrorist when President Clinton granted him a US visa in 1994. That sudden, if carefully considered, move hasn't worked out too badly for an incomparably more peaceful Ulster. Yet the IRA itself was reborn in the 1960s in reaction to the terrorist acts of loyalist paramilitary organizations abetted by a deeply oppressive sectarian regime. Is there legitimate resistance to oppression which does not deserve the name of terrorism? Can't states be terrorists?

Today Hamas is called a terrorist organization but there is disturbing evidence that before the Israeli-PLO dialogue started Hamas was given covert support by Israel in order to split the Palestinians and isolate them from the PLO and to devalue their cause internationally. Where does one even begin to appraise who is a terrorist when General Pervez Musharraf, on taking power in 1999, halted President Clinton's effort to train assassins (itself a violation of American law) to get bin Laden? The whole seamy tale of Lumumba and western intelligence agencies in the Congo has no heroes.

States often aid groups that other states regard as terrorists. Clearly, terrorists are not only ragged bands of underfunded outcasts who always fight on the wrong, that is to say, weaker side.

So asking authorities to define terrorism is something the whole world should welcome. Syrian diplomats and Hizbullah Secretary-General Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, who are not in such good odour in the West, make an eminently reasonable request for "a clear, specified and correct definition of terrorism, and to distinguish it from the concept of legitimate resistance."

If we arrived at a definition acceptable to the entire UN, for example, we would help create an extraordinary permanent coalition, capable of responding aptly to any threat by proper combinations of police work, bombs, bread and mediation. Who can possibly argue against that?

However, the joy of realpolitik is that it is a plaything of the elites, a game restricted to whoever occupies office of power. Every vested interest keeps an inventory of desired items it wants to push at every opportunity.

Hence, George Bush defends a tax cut for the rich as a rational blessing in good times and, as a downturn threatened, as a boon to lift the economy. Rationality is beside the point in such moments.

As Daniel Ellsberg observed in the aftermath of the Vietnam war, it was a credit to the American people that politicians had to lie to them so much about that vile war, although it was shameful that it was so easy to do. Elites historically are allergic to telling ordinary citizens anything worth knowing so we should applaud any chance for free debate about so important an issue as terrorism.

Citizens must try to find out where security measures are really going to help, especially where civil liberties are concerned. Consider the fact that oppressive regimes, including Muslim ones like the one in Algeria, define as terrorists perfectly civilized people who fled to the UK for asylum. So then, is the UK, technically speaking, harbouring terrorists in these cases ? Now the UK is threatening to change the law so that dissidents of any kind are treated as if they were rabid terrorists, particularly if they don't suit the UK's political aims of the moment.

Obviously, we must punish the people who perpetrated the World Trade Centre horror. Perhaps we can talk as well about the less obvious forms that terror takes. Arundhati Roy rightly asks why not hunt down and turn in the CEO of Union Carbide for the Bhopal gas leak disaster in which company negligence was responsible for killing thousands and harming many more? Terror takes many forms.

Perhaps the world's nations eventually can figure out how to protect their citizens from these less conspicuous terrorists, too.

Let us welcome this extraordinary opportunity to work out a sensible and binding definition of terrorism. Any such definition, of course, will be highly attentive to the shifting contexts in which people act. When visiting East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) Zhou Enlai was asked by Governor Monem Khan if it was true that he once was nearly executed as a terrorist when he was nabbed by Chiang Kai-Shek's forces? Zhou nodded, smiled and observed that there was a very, very thin line between a traitor and a patriot.



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Patti
-Pride Girl-
 
You won't give any opinion because you want to avoid discussion??

1)You don't have to give your opinion, Patti. We know what your opinion would probably be from reading all your other US-Bashing posts.

2)If you wanted to "avoid discussion" on a topic, why in the heck did you post it in the first place? Do you not expect people to fight over it? Of course you did.
 
A good article, but one, surely, that no one here will want to read.

I'm awaiting for the excuses to blast this article as "liberal tripe," how the writers of this article must obviously hate America so much that they should move to Afghanistan if they don't like it, and how, because this wasn't mentioned on FOX News, it must be a lie.

*sits back and waits*

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
 
I decided to post this letter I got the other day.

It doesn't really mean anything to me and it's definately not my opinion or stance (
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.

I just thought I should post it!
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GOD BLESS AMERICA
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Broken Arrow, Oklahoma School officials remove "God Bless America" signs from schools in fear that someone might be offended.
Channel 12 News in Long Island, New York, orders flags removed from the newsroom and red, white, and blue ribbons removed from the lapels of reporters. Why? Management did not want to appear biased and felt that our nations flag might give the appearance that "they lean one way or another". Berkeley, California bans U.S. Flags from being displayed on city fire trucks because they didn't want to offend anyone in the community. In an "act of tolerance" the head of the public library at Florida Gulf Coast University ordered all "Proud to be an American" signs removed so as to not offend international students. I, for one, am quite disturbed by these actions of so-called American citizens; and I am tired of this nation worrying about whether or not we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on September 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans. However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled in New York and Washington D.C. when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America. In fact, our country's population is almost entirely comprised of descendants of immigrants; however, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some native Americans, need to understand. First of all, it is not our responsibility to continually try not to offend you in any way. This idea of America being a multi-cultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language, and our own lifestyle. This culture, called the "American Way" has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom. Our forefathers fought, bled, and died at places such as Bunker Hill, Antietam, San Juan, Iwo Jima, Normandy, Korea, Vietnam, We speak English, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society - learn our language!
"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some off-the-wall, Christian, Right Wing, political slogan - it is our national motto. It is engraved in stone in the House of Representatives in our Capitol and it is printed on our currency. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation; and this is clearly documented throughout our history. If it is appropriate for our motto to be inscribed in the halls of our highest level of Government, then it is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. God is in our pledge, our National Anthem, nearly every patriotic song, and in our founding documents. We honor His birth, death, and resurrection as holidays, and we turn to Him in prayer in times of crisis. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture and we are proud to have Him. We are proud of our heritage and those who have so honorably defended our freedoms. We celebrate Independence Day, Memorial Day, Veterans Day, and Flag Day. We have parades, picnics, and barbecues where we proudly wave our flag. As an American, I have the right to wave my flag, sing my national anthem, quote my national motto, and cite my pledge whenever and wherever I choose. If the Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.
The American culture is our way of life, our heritage, and we are proud of it. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. We are Americans, like it or not, this is our country, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion about our government, culture, or society, and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great American freedom, the right to leave. If you agree, pass this onto other Americans!! It is time to take a stand!!


[This message has been edited by whammy (edited 10-16-2001).]
 
Originally posted by whammy:
I decided to post this letter I got the other day.

It doesn't really mean anything to me and it's definately not my opinion or stance (
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.

I just thought I should post it!
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GOD BLESS AMERICA
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It?s ok if you wanned to post it, but...
1) It does not answer my main topic, or (since there hasnt been any question) it has no conection with it (And, Check again, the two guys who wrote the articles are Unitedstatians)
2) There is nothing new in that letter. I know the way you think, but, you said that "We are Americans, like it or not, this is our country, our land, and our lifestyle" and im NOT against it...As long as it is in YOUR COUNTRY, YOUR LAND AND YOUR LIFESTYLE, but you(all)?ve started to mess with another lifestyle and stuff...so we dont want you to mess with us, that?s all!!!

BTW the letter is offensive to all the Jews (and you have a LOT there) and the muslims you have there, considering that GOD is not only the Catholic GOD...

Love for you Whammy, even though you are so childish!

Love and peace on earth for all the rest, and now yes, I hope I havent forgot to post anything so I can quit Free your mind!

*I sit down by Melon and Radiodivision and congratulate them*



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Patti
-Pride Girl-
 
BTW...
Is it your landguage "unitedstatian"? ?Cos I think you speak English (that comes from England) and (AGAIN BTW) read your contitution, it does not mark an official landguaje so, you speak FRENCH, ARABIC, CHINESSE all toghether...LOL!
On other topic...raise your hand all the countries that have a Flag day, Independence day, Memorials day etc...(?cos mine one does have ?em all, and it does not make it better than any other)

Now, yes, bye!
Love and peace on earth (I wont read again that letter ?cos i would never ever stop)

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Patti
-Pride Girl-
 
Pattie,
You forgot that all Catholics, Christians, Muslims and Jews worship the same God.
 
Well, here it goes again. Most non-United Staters are against war and then the United Staters say "well, it didn't happened in your country" or "you always bash the usa".

Yes, it didn't happened in my country, and yes I bash the US everytime I can, along with other principles and I even go protest against some actions of my own country.

What most United Staters don't understand and don't want to see is that the USA controls the world. You are everywhere. You control the United Nations. You don't take the responsabilities a decent super-power would take. You don'T care about the world and when you go somewhere, it's to protect YOUR interests, mostly economical interests. That's globalization, that's your stuff, it's not for the benefit of anyone except your country and some riches of the other countries.

You use people and when those people do something that can be turned wrong or when they in fact do something against your country, you go "to defend freedom"... while you defend only your interests, as usual, not the people you say you defend. And who do you defend in this war against terrorism ? You bashed Russia when it took action in Tchechenia, but now you are doing the same in Afghanistan. Why ? Because it happened to YOU. You supported terrorism before and dictatorships, like Pinochet or the Israelis terrorism. This is not about religion, it's about economics...

Long live the economical dictatorship

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?Je suis le dernier homme. Contre tous, je me d?fendrai... je ne capitulerai pas.?
"I am the last man. Against all, I will defend myself. I shall not capitulate".
" Soy el hombre pasado. Contra todos me defender?. No capitular?. "
"Ich bin der letzte Mann. Gegen alle verteidige mich ich. Ich kapituliere nicht. "
"Sono l' ultimo uomo. Contro tutti mi difender?. Non capitulate."

- Eug?ne Ionesco, "Rhinoc?ros"
 
this is great comic relief! I love it when you throw around the terms "unitedstatians" and "United Staters"

may I suggest "USAers" or "USAians" for short?!?!
 
How free America is! People post anti-American sentiment here and get bashed by America-lovers. But that's all. tehy get bashed on a forum. Well big whooping doo. How would you like to be arrested for speaking against your Governement? Doesn't happen in the good old USA. But go to Communist China and try it. or Cuba. Or, while we're on the topic, Afghanistan! Man, I love this country!
 
Originally posted by STING:
Pattie,
You forgot that all Catholics, Christians, Muslims and Jews worship the same God.

This does not support that idea (With wich btw, I absolutely agree with)

"..."In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some off-the-wall, Christian, Right Wing, political slogan - it is our national motto. It is engraved in stone in the House of Representatives in our Capitol and it is printed on our currency. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles..."

It does not say "In Jesus we trust"

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Patti
-Pride Girl-
 
Originally posted by Holy John:
Well, here it goes again. Most non-United Staters are against war and then the United Staters say "well, it didn't happened in your country" or "you always bash the usa".

Yes, it didn't happened in my country, and yes I bash the US everytime I can, along with other principles and I even go protest against some actions of my own country.

What most United Staters don't understand and don't want to see is that the USA controls the world. You are everywhere. You control the United Nations. You don't take the responsabilities a decent super-power would take. You don'T care about the world and when you go somewhere, it's to protect YOUR interests, mostly economical interests. That's globalization, that's your stuff, it's not for the benefit of anyone except your country and some riches of the other countries.

You use people and when those people do something that can be turned wrong or when they in fact do something against your country, you go "to defend freedom"... while you defend only your interests, as usual, not the people you say you defend. And who do you defend in this war against terrorism ? You bashed Russia when it took action in Tchechenia, but now you are doing the same in Afghanistan. Why ? Because it happened to YOU. You supported terrorism before and dictatorships, like Pinochet or the Israelis terrorism. This is not about religion, it's about economics...

Long live the economical dictatorship


Oh thank you for enlightening us, oh all-knowing one. You know, for someone who claims to be in the know, you sure do a good job of portraying every American as ignorant, unaware of the government, and not doing anything about their beliefs.

Contrary to your opinion, the actions of the US government do not always represent the beliefs of all Americans. So wipe that silly "you do this, you do that, you're to blame, you're at fault" crap out.

To say that the United States doesn't care about the world is probably the stupidest thing I have ever heard out of this entire fiasco resulting from the September 11th tragedy.

The United States just can't win with some people. We can give more aid per capita to foreign countries than any other nation, and someone will say that it's only to protect our interests ([rant]well no shit, sherlock! I'd say keeping foreign nations stable is a damn good thing to have an interest in. Unless of course you want us to just leave the rest of the world completely alone and let things fall to pieces. We live in an age of truly global relations - political, economic and ethnic. Any country would be a fool to turn a blind eye to troubles in one part of that relationship, because sooner or later it's gonna be felt on our side[/rant]). We can get involved militarily to try and speed the resolution of conflicts, and people will say we're sticking our noses into places they shouldn't be. We can sit back and let people work out their differences and people will say that we're not doing enough with all of our power to promote peace. We can try diplomacy (I believe we gave the Taliban an option to hand over Bin Laden several times, and they've refused every time or tried to weasel their way out of it) and when that doesn't get anywhere and leaves us no real option except military action, people will bitch that we just couldn't wait to throw our military might around.

I'm frankly getting sick of all these people who have it all figured out, and know exactly what we're doing wrong, while offering no viable alternatives to back up their side.
 
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
You won't give any opinion because you want to avoid discussion??

1)You don't have to give your opinion, Patti. We know what your opinion would probably be from reading all your other US-Bashing posts.

2)If you wanted to "avoid discussion" on a topic, why in the heck did you post it in the first place? Do you not expect people to fight over it? Of course you did.


Bravo 80s! Couldn't have said it better myself.


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Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do for someone is to just tell them to fuck off. I am told to fuck off rather a lot by these three gentlemen.
 
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
How free America is! People post anti-American sentiment here and get bashed by America-lovers. But that's all. tehy get bashed on a forum. Well big whooping doo. How would you like to be arrested for speaking against your Governement? Doesn't happen in the good old USA. But go to Communist China and try it. or Cuba. Or, while we're on the topic, Afghanistan! Man, I love this country!


I once again, salute you, sir.
 
Originally posted by Holy John:

I bash the US everytime I can


That you can freely exercise this right to voice your opinion is in large part due to the fact that your southern neighbor is nowhere near the monster you make him to be.

What most United Staters don't understand and don't want to see is that the USA controls the world. You are everywhere. You control the United Nations. You don't take the responsabilities a decent super-power would take. You don'T care about the world and when you go somewhere, it's to protect YOUR interests, mostly economical interests. That's globalization, that's your stuff, it's not for the benefit of anyone except your country and some riches of the other countries.

You use people and when those people do something that can be turned wrong or when they in fact do something against your country, you go "to defend freedom"... while you defend only your interests, as usual, not the people you say you defend.


The US does, at times, employ used car sales tactics abroad. How many times do you want us to admit that? What you suggest is that the US does NO good at all. Or at the very least, our negative outweight our good. INCORRECT.

I don't recall ever seeing the "responsibilities of a superpower" being posted anywhere. Maybe we should let the North Koreans or the Chinese have a crack at it. The US is hardly re-inventing the wheel in their foreign policy. Anything we've ever done we learned from the English and French "Empires" back in "the day".

AND Why use our track record as an arguement against fighting terrorism? The moderate countries of Islam don't want anything to do with bin Laden, so they would probably benefit from his demise more than the US.


You bashed Russia when it took action in Tchechenia, but now you are doing the same in Afghanistan.

Those two events are hardly similar!

HJ,

Half of the time I wish the US would just pull out of all its foreign interests, close its borders, including the one we share with YOU, and use all our foreign aid money helping US citizens that live in poverty. Live a truly pre-WWII existence. Just let the influence of Russia, China, and North Korea pervade the rest of the planet. Then we would see how the US stood up to your "responsibilities of a superpower", when compared to those three bastions of goodness.

But, that's not realistic. In the eyes of the world, we are supposed to help starving countries and fight for the weak, even though there will always be do-nothing pricks like yourself who just sit back and judge our every move as "self-serving".

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Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do for someone is to just tell them to fuck off. I am told to fuck off rather a lot by these three gentlemen.


[This message has been edited by StarsnStripes (edited 10-17-2001).]
 
Originally posted by Holy John:
You don't take the responsabilities a decent super-power would take.

Originally posted by Holy John:
No one is asking the US to be the superman of the world...[/b]




[This message has been edited by babble (edited 10-17-2001).]
 
I see that no one has commented on the article at hand. I see that my original post still hold true--"a good article, but one, surely, that no one here will want to read." Instead, it's just the same old bickering, and I'm tired of having to be the one to resurrect debates.

*still sits back and waits*

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
 
This quote is from my boss, who happily sits here next to me, reading bits of Interference for quite some time now..

Is it un American to disagree with the policies of US, absolutely not. That is part of the American way. You should be thankful you live in a country that allows you to have those view points. Has the US made errors in foreign policy? Yes! But, to say that at some way we are responsible for what happened on Sept. 11 is also wrong. All foreign policy by every country is self serving. Also, those who are responsible for 9-11, did not they also have a responsibilty to also handle the events diplomatically.


Good qoute I may add..(sucking up to get a high raise)j/k!!
 
I agree with what you write, BV, but, if you look at the topic here, it is not about Sept. 11th or Afghanistan specifically.

And this isn't directed at you specifically. No one here has commented on what the article has to say; just some personal attacks and diversions. Afghanistan, it seems, has overrun this forum completely.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
 
Melon..Sorry I meant to get your attention that it was my boss who wrote this for me..
Remember how I emailed you once about him and I always discussing politics? Since he always reads your stuff, admires you a great deal as a intellectual, and since you are both from Michigan, he basically wanted to post something under your thread, I am not sure, if I cut and pasted it in the right thread under your name..

P.S. Yep, I always bring your points up at work.
smile.gif
 
Originally posted by Diemen:


The United States just can't win with some people. We can give more aid per capita to foreign countries than any other nation.[/i]

This is just not true! Denmark gives 1% of their GDP for help to the 3rd world countries, NOrway and Sweden are second, than it's france, Germany, Australia... And US is on the bottom of the list of developed west world countries with 0,1% of their GDP for help to 3rd world countires. Please go to world bank and buy yourself some macroeconomisc books, yearbooks and such stuff and than put up a claim like that one.

The posted article is totaly right - I'm not saying that any american is wrong or unjust, but US government surly is. Everithing in that article is true and right, so why can't you except that? Or are you so ignorant?
Melon hit it right - noone here is talking about the article. You just react like you usualy do - why don't you like americans? Why don't you say what you thing about all the statements said in the article by american journalists? You are full of BS, and you only want to defend yourself by distracting people by diferent subjects.
 
Originally posted by melon:
No one here has commented on what the article has to say; just some personal attacks and diversions. Afghanistan, it seems, has overrun this forum completely.
true

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Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it
 
Marko, thank you for your response. This is what I consider reasonable debate.
Regarding Chechnya, I agree that what the Russians have done there is a war crime. For that matter the U.S. government would likely agree and has criticized Russia in this matter. Here's the problem as I see it:
What can America or any other country do about it at this point? Russia has a vast nuclear and military arsenal at its disposition so we obviouly can't stop them with our military. Nor would we want to at this point because Russia is not only a powerful country it is an unstable one as well which makes it all the more dangerous. As hypocritical as it may sound we need to treat them with "kid gloves." As bad as their current leadership may or may not be it could (and has been) worse. To be honest I am at a loss about what to do in regards to Russia. What do you think would be a reasonable course of action?
As far as the former Yugoslavia goes I am similarly at a loss. As I see it terrible war crimes we occuring there. Crimes against humanity. So what if any action should the U.S. government have taken? For a long time we did nothing (for that matter not a single Western nation interceded in any substantive way) and people continued to die.
Eventually, President Clinton decided that something needed to be done. A lot of Americans disagreed with him and thought that nothing good could come of military action there but we bombed the Serbians and innocent people died. The Chinese embassy was even accidentally hit much to their understandable anger. Some people believe that what America did was a courageous act because we risked our own lives and reputation to help a Muslim minority. For once America acted without any discernable profit to itself something America rarely gets credit for doing. Bono is one person who thinks that way.
Others believe that America didn't solve the problems and just killed more people.
I'm not sure what I think. I think we had something of a moral obligation to act but I'm not convinced any good came of it.
When we tried to help the people of Somalia a lot more people died (including U.S. Marines and we turned tail and ran much to everyone's amusement.) Does that mean we shouldn't have been in Somalia in the first place? I don't think so.
As for Americans who have supported the IRA I would say that it depends upon HOW they supported the IRA. It isn't illegal for an American to support Al-Qaida for instance. Morally reprehensible perhaps, but not illegal. But if an American were to supply arms to the IRA I say that American ought to be tried for crimes against humanity. Fair enough?
Israel and Palestine. The reason we give Palestinians and Jews that "BS" as you put it is because we are trying to act as an intermediary, a role that both Israel AND Yasser Arafat encourage America to take. But if it is "BS" to ask them to refrain from violence wouldn't it be "BS" for you or anyone else to ask America to do the same?

MP
 
Okay, let's talk about the damn article with which some of you are so enamored. I don't think most of us were interested in debating the merits of it because as members of Interference we're far more interested in debating Interferencers about THEIR opinions. Or perhaps I'm giving you too much credit to expect you to be able to argue the merits of your own suppositions with your own words. Must you resort to Sayeed Hasan Kahn and Kurt Jacobsen, whoever they hell they are?

As for Melon's complaint about this thread morphing into a debate about Afghanistan, try and see it from our perspective. An article criticizing American foreign policy in regards to our war with terrorists is posted by someone who is adamantly opposed to our attack on Afhanistan. How can it not be perceived as a continuation of that debate? Honestly.

Anyhow, the article...

Let's see if we can agree on this much to start with:
The basic tenent of the article is that the world of international politics is a murky one with shifting alliances, dishonesty and considerable disinformation. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. A shocking revelation for a dumb ole American like me but I'm doing my best to assimilate this stunning revelation. I've never heard the likes of it before!!
SUNUVAGUN!!
The clever authors point out that the Soviet Union once the epitome of evil in American eyes is now an ally. Not sure why they used this example but it's a terrible one. There's a huge difference between the Soviet Union and Russia. If some of you are so profoundly stupid that you need examples as to why this is so please speak up now. No one needs examples? Well that's encouraging at least.
'Nelson Mandela was once imprisoned as a terrorist but look at him now,' the writers point out. Was anyone else offended by this? You weren't? Than what the fuck is wrong with you? If you can't honestly see the difference between the sort of folks who blow up discotheques and fly airliners into skyscrapers and Nelson Mandela then you are so caught in the vice of relativism as to be hopeless. If this is the case please let me know now and I'll desist because I know a pointless debate when I see one.
The authors then go on to point out several examples of the United States' fickle allegiances: Noriega, Saddam Hussein etc.
Gerry Adams they point out was once considered a terrorist but was granted a visa as a statesman and look how well that turned out. "Is there legitimate resistance to oppression which does not deserve the name of terrorism" the aurthors wonder?
And look at Henry Kissinger and American foreign policy in Chile they point out. Can't states be considered terrorists as well?

As it turns out though the authors are only appalled by terror when it is perpetrated by a State or Government. In other words if a member of a Middle Eastern terrorist group were to blow up New York City with a nuclear device which they purchased from a former Soviet Republic it would be an act of "legitimate resistance" of the sort that brave folks like Nelson Mandela have been doing for years. More over it would be America's fault for inventing Nukes in the first place. But if the U.S. were to support a government that killed innocent people that would be a hideous act of terrorism deserving of punishment.
Is it possible that there is such thing as the lesser of two evils?
The authors feel that reasonable people like the government of Syria and the Secretary General of Hizbullah might be the sort of "authorities" the U.S. needs to help it define what terrorism really is. Uh, huh.

As is the case with every one of the articles and threads posted to Interference regarding this subject the authors make several excellent points. They point out examples of American wrongdoing in the world and American hypocrisy but they undermine their arguments with feeble ideas as to what America's response should be. Even these esteemed authors acknowledge (however briefly) that the terrorists responsible for the 9/11 attacks must be punished. (Along with the American running dogs of course.)

Their solution? Some sort of non-specific consortium, a "coalition capable of responding aptly to any threat by proper combinations of police work, bombs, bread and mediation." Who would be part of this coalition? If the membership were as diverse as the authors would obviously want would it be capable of action? Would any coalition with members from Afhanistan, Iraq, China, North Korea and whose members were part of Hizbullah, Hamas, the PLO, Al-Qyaida etc, EVER rule in favor of action that results in the bombing of Afghanistan? For that matter would the coalition ever rule in favor of "legitimate" terrorist action if its members included Israel, the U.S., Canada, Great Britian, Russia, France etc?
My fantasy for solving this is just as unlikely as theirs. I was hoping God would descend from Heaven and smite the wrondoers and bring peace and harmony to the rest of us.
In the meantime nearly 6,000 people died on 9/11. Biological weapons are being used on Americans. What should America do NOW?

MAP

p.s.- anyone who equates the intentional murder of innocent civilians by masked terrorists with the unintentional deaths of people due to negligence ought to be slapped.
If I run over someone with my car because I want to kill them it's murder. If I run over someone because I'm distraced by the radio it's a crime but it isn't murder.

p.p.s.- Is it possible that the U.S. has to make unsavory alliances in this unsavory world? You can't very well criticize the U.S. for dealing with the Chinese gov't after Tiannemen and also criticize the U.S. for not normalizing relations with Iraq.
I personally know several people who criticized the U.S. for not defending the Muslims in the former Yugoslavia and who then criticized the U.S. for intervening militarily. Sometimes you can't win.
 
MAP: at least you gave us your opinion of the article. In some things I agree with you (mandela) in others I don't. Russia is different than USSR, but what they were doing in Chechnia was pure war crime, and in that aspect they didn't change. I also think that you can't equate victims in WTC and those civilians in a bombing of military targets as a war crime goes - BUT it's your standard, so when you talk about war crimes in former yugoslavia you (again US government not you as a person) equates 6000 dead civilians who were sloughtered by serbs, and 50 civilians who died in a combat when muslims or croats were fighting to take back their land - and ou name it, now look at this stupidity, "overusing the artilery". So what your country sets as standard to other country should also be standard by which you should act. And about punishing those who support terorism - what about all of those people in US who suppoerted IRA with money and arms for 30-40 yrs? I'll use a clishe here: if you talk the talk you should walk the walk and punish ALL of those who support it. Another example of hipocrisy: you say that you have the right to revenge and retaliate, but when 10 palestinians or Jews die, then you give them the BS about how they should stay civilised, and turn to dialog instead of revenge and violence... I got the feeling that you are not very stupid, so you must be blind to some thruths!
 
MAP: what I'm trying to say is that US sometimes iritates me b/c you know to come off as big headed when someone goes on saying that US is all good, that there's nothing wrong done by the hands of the US and in the same time patronize everyone else all over the world.
US is generaly positive, there is no country for which I'll say that is good, so it's positive. But you have a lot of sins and you don't addmit it - you just go on saying that you are almost biger that god, that world would be in hell if you weren't here, and you have done a lot of bad bad things recently (last 50 yrs) not to mention horible things in last 200 yrs - slavery, indians and their land, Japanees "concentration" camps during ww2, not giving civil rights to black people until, what, late 60's? - and still, with all theese things on your consience, you pretend to be nothing short of saints. If you take civil and human (basicaly race) rights in the US in the last 50 yrs all Europe was ahead of you. So that is why people like to throw punches at the US, b/c a lot of times they are right. It just comes off as hipocrisy.
MAP thanks for giving me a decent arguments, and honest opinion. As far as Russia is concerned - I don't know how to deal with it either, but if you want the world to see you as just, than you should stick with your principles and not comunicate or have diplomatic and economic relationship with them, same as Iraq or Cuba - put sanctions on Russia, you don't have to fight them. I wouldn't like you to do that but if you want to be principal... Now yugoslavia - I'm from Croatia so I could just go on and on but I don't want to bore the people here with it again - if it interests you tell me your e-mail and I'll send you a thurough letter about it.
Israel: you they should stick with dialog BUT AGAIN - you ahould do as you preach or stop preaching. You retaliate to terorists without dialog (the way which is right for me), but they should talk and talk and talk? Nobody should ask you to talk with bin laden, but someone can tell you not to shoot civilians.
that's bout it for now,
bye


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Everyone loves me
everyone thinks that I'm georgeours
they wait for their turn to meet me
 
From the article:

Citizens must try to find out where security measures are really going to help, especially where civil liberties are concerned. Consider the fact that oppressive regimes, including Muslim ones like the one in Algeria, define as terrorists perfectly civilized people who fled to the UK for asylum. So then, is the UK, technically speaking, harbouring terrorists in these cases ? Now the UK is threatening to change the law so that dissidents of any kind are treated as if they were rabid terrorists, particularly if they don't suit the UK's political aims of the moment.


This sort of touches on the root and cause of the problem the US has in the Middle East/Arab world.

Many Arab states are run by corrupt governments, who basically cheat and steal to keep themselves in power and keep themselves at an economic advantage. There is no democracy, there are no real elections, and there most certainly doesn't exist any promotion of social equality.

The issue is that the US government is supportive of such regimes. Saudi Arabia is an excellent example. If you go to the UK, as the article states, and speak with Saudi intellectuals and exiles, they will tell you of the level of corruption which runs rampant there. But, it is not in the "best interest of the US" to displace these governments, because the line of thinking is "they're sobs, but they're our sobs." In that there have been decades of collaborations between the US government and the corrupt Arab regimes (most notably regarding oil), and also because the regimes that are in place are decidedly not what you would term "virtuoso religious" regimes. In plain words, they are not "too Islamic."

This will continue to be a problem because the US government has failed, in its foreign policy, to realize that the people in many of these states are very unhappy with their current political situation. There needs to be an acceptance that, even if a different government is unknown to the US, or even less friendly, its existence is inevitable. You cannot sit in DC, telling people in Mecca that the corrupt royal family must remain in power so that US citizens can buy cheaper gas to drive their SUVs.

I am wholly against terrorism, I don't sympathize with anybody who'd commit these acts. I don't believe the US military is trying to kill Afghan civilians and I don't think every American is ignorant.

But I do believe it would be in the best interest of the average American to take a good, long look at the foreign policy of the US in places outside of North America. And then ask himself: "how far are we rightfully allowed to extend that policy?"

melon, I've somewhat commented on teh article. Can I have my lollipop now?
wink.gif
 
anitram,

If Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda are so concerned about the plight of the oppressed peoples of the Arab world, then why are they allied with the Taliban? The Taliban's atrocities against the people of Afghanistan and against foreign visitors are well known. At least in Saudi Arabia one can inherit $350 million from one's family construction business. The terrorists don't care about their own people at all.
 
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