War on Terror is Unwinnable

[Klaus]

anitram

 

[STING2]

I don't know if terrorism is winnable or not - you can kill a man, but not an idea. What were Che Guevara's last words "Shoot, coward, you're only killing a man." Goes to show you what the legacy can be, even if you chop off the head.

That said, you do need a concerted effort to go and root out terrorists wherever they are and develop a strategy to root out terrorism as a whole, even if it takes 500 years. The problem, as I see it, is that we are barking up the wrong tree in Iraq entirely. The war on terror will not be won here at all, it needs to be won in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, two states which breed terrorists by the dozens and yet we ally themselves with them. It's seriously a demented policy. Truth be told, I don't think Iran is any better than these two, and yet where are we? Iraq. There were considerably larger fish to fry, and we sit now negotiating with a lunatic cleric, watching people getting heads chopped off, a soccer team that sees us as oppressors while those peace-loving madrassas in Saudi, Pakistan and Iran are churning out baby Osamas and brainwashing those children into a future of murder and destruction.

We're fighting the wrong war here.

The war that removed Saddam from Iraq was necessary with or without terrorism or 9/11. Saddam had invaded and attacked four different countries and threatened the planets energy supply with siezure or sabotage. He had used WMD more times than any leader in history as well as murdering 1.7 million people through out his reign in power in wars and executions. Bin Ladin and Al Quada by contrast have not even come remotely close to killing the number of people that Saddam has or taking Persian Gulf Oil off the market. The war in Iraq was not barking up the wrong tree, but a matter of necessity given the situation.

Pakistan and its terrorism have been primarily aimed at the situation in Kashmire. There is a large segment of the population that deeply supports Al Quada, but the government and military have helped the United States catch more members of Al Quada than any other country on the planet. So the idea that Pakistan is the enemy is simply false.

Saudi Arabia has been a US ally since the 1940s. Bin Ladin would like to destroy this alliance which is why he loaded the 9/11 team with 15 Saudi nationals in order to try and convince people that Saudi Arabia was an enemy and create a conflict situation. Unfortunately, Bin Ladin has succeeded in converting many people to this idea. People forget just how interdependent Saudi Arabia and the Western Countries really are. There are people in Saudi Arabia that are angered by that, but they do not represent the majority. If they did, the Saudi government would be easily overthrown as the military and security forces are compartively small given the size of the population.

Just because there are terrorist elements in these countries does not mean these countries are terrorist states. There are two countries though that do support lots of terrorism against Israel by heavily supporting Humas and Hezboloh. Not that there are not other people from other countries supporting them, but in terms of actual government support for these terrorist organizations, Syria and Iran are at the top of the list.

The war in Iraq is not the wrong war and the efforts of the hundreds of thousands of military personal and civilian personal are necessary and are helping to make the country and the world a better place.

 

[verte76]

Pakistan scares the out of me. All it would take for all hell to break loose is for someone to knock off the dictator. The place is full of madrassas training little Osamas, and let's not forget that the Taliban movement's idealogy originally came from India and spread through what is now Pakistan. What we've got here is a convergence of Deobandi Islam, which is particularly strict about the veiling of women and other such laws, with Wahhabist financial support from Saudi Arabia.

 

[Scarletwine]

Sting you are so out of the loop of International thought. It is insane.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2004/07/14/notes071404.DTL&nl=fix

I'm really tired of being on the defensive. F all of you war mongers.

 

[pax]

Scarletwine, I think the last part of your post was unnecessary. We have the right to our differing opinions. "F***ing warmongers" isn't exactly constructive.

 

[anitram]

Pakistan and its terrorism have been primarily aimed at the situation in Kashmire.

Oh, well so long as they're killing other people's children, that's A-Okay with us.

 

[STING2]

Oh, well so long as they're killing other people's children, that's A-Okay with us.

I never said it was ok, but it is not the international threat many make it out to be.

 

[STING2]

Scarletwine, I think the last part of your post was unnecessary. We have the right to our differing opinions. "F***ing warmongers" isn't exactly constructive.

I think the first part of the post is unnecessary as well.

 

[AcrobatMan]

Oh, well so long as they're killing other people's children, that's A-Okay with us.

They are well organised training camps in Pakistan-occupied kashmir fully funded by government of Pakistan.

I will just give you 1 link ( as an example)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/kashmir/Story/0,2763,920912,00.html

Now Bush can give more funds to Pak so that it can be funded to train jihadis bent on killing Indians ( already more than 60000 killed since 1989) , raping Indians ( already more than 6300 raped), 1200 temples destroyed, more than 300,000 displaced !!

Okay Sting - India doesnt constitute international world...wow

You are simply great !!!

 

[STING2]

They are well organised training camps in Pakistan-occupied kashmir fully funded by government of Pakistan.

I will just give you 1 link ( as an example)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/kashmir/Story/0,2763,920912,00.html

Now Bush can give more funds to Pak so that it can be funded to train jihadis bent on killing Indians ( already more than 60000 killed since 1989) , raping Indians ( already more than 6300 raped), 1200 temples destroyed, more than 300,000 displaced !!

Okay Sting - India doesnt constitute international world...wow

You are simply great !!!

Perhaps you should research the number of members of Al Quada that have been caught because of are alliance with Pakistan. Pakistan has caught more members of Al Quada than any other country on the planet outside of the United States. This has saved an unknowable number of lives.

Yes, Pakistan is not the perfect Ally, but neither was Stalin's Soviet Union in World War II. No one suggests though that the USA should not have been allies with the Soviet Union in World War II.

 

[sharky]

That's because all the terrorists are in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Unfortunately, we diverted most of our troops to Iraq so instead of trying to find Osama bin Laden, we've been chasing after phanton "weapons of mass destruction related development programs".

And what have these terrorists that we've caught done for us? All the administration does is parade them out to boost their poll numbers. The MOST DISGUSTING act of this was done right after the Democratic Convention. In order to divert interest away from John Kerry, Condoleeza Rice outed an al Qaeda informant that was working on the inside getting us information.

Why do we have to depend on Pakistan to find a man who killed 3000 people on American soil? We should be finding that murderer and bringing him to justice instead of getting bogged down in Iraq. I have spent the past three years walking by the Trade Center site knowing that those that I watched die that day have still not had justice served in their name. Osama bin Laden killed people on our turf -- we should have caught him and been done with it instead of trying to find an excuse to invade Iraq and now having to warfronts with no exit strategy or end in sight.

 

[Flying FuManchu]

Troops are already in Afghanistan.

We depend on Pakisatan b/c Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf has a tenuous relationship with the people of Pakistan and but is pro-US. Pakistan is a nuclear power. Pakistan does not want US troops within its borders looking for terrorists. Things aren't as simple as one makes it out to be when looking for Al-Qaeda. Just as the Bush administartion over-simplified what the the post-war occupation would be like, people are over-simplifying international relations and what can be done in the "fight against terrorism or the hunt for Al Qaeda."

 

[Flying FuManchu]

Also the outing of Khan IMO was a result of how both sides (especially liberal media whoever you might think fits that description) politicizing the terror alert and homeland security. The Bush administration showed weakness by revealing that information but when the media starts politicizing our national security to the extent that they have over the terror alerts, then stuff like this tends to happen IMO.

 

[AcrobatMan]

Good post SHARKY

Sting2, perhaps you need to research more.

doesnt it prove the 99% of all al-qaeda members are there or Afghanistan. if they are being caught, it is not of its will..its because it HAS to because of pressure of USA. I welcome arrest of Al-qaeda members...but if 2 are being CAUGHT, 98 others are not only shielded but also trained. there was a report that foreign terrorist in north west pakistan will not be caught if they just register themselves somewhere. this was in BBC news

There are not 100 or 200 terrorists..they are in thousands..

1) do u know where did Hambali and his brothers get indoctrinated?

2) do you know who created and supported Taliban ?

3) where did Rassam undergo training ?

4) where did Aimal Kasi come from. ?

5) do you know about dawood Ibrahim and which government is not only providing safe haven but also helping him financially ?

6) there was a news of leak of nuke secrets..did you read that news.. ?

7) do you know about the terrorist camps in pak occupied kashmir ?

8) do you know anything about Masood Azhar ?

9) do you know how the present president got himself elected (??). you talk about democracy... Saddam was more democratic..remember he got 100% votes in election in Iraq..why he was the only candidate and he got 100% is another story


Unfortunately US is happy with the 1% it gets...and busy in Iraq..where there might be another 0.5% .

 

[A_Wanderer]

RE: Pakistani Nuclear Secrets Sold to N-Korea, Libya and Iraq.

KHAAAAAAAAN!!!

 

[STING2]

That's because all the terrorists are in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Unfortunately, we diverted most of our troops to Iraq so instead of trying to find Osama bin Laden, we've been chasing after phanton "weapons of mass destruction related development programs".

And what have these terrorists that we've caught done for us? All the administration does is parade them out to boost their poll numbers. The MOST DISGUSTING act of this was done right after the Democratic Convention. In order to divert interest away from John Kerry, Condoleeza Rice outed an al Qaeda informant that was working on the inside getting us information.

Why do we have to depend on Pakistan to find a man who killed 3000 people on American soil? We should be finding that murderer and bringing him to justice instead of getting bogged down in Iraq. I have spent the past three years walking by the Trade Center site knowing that those that I watched die that day have still not had justice served in their name. Osama bin Laden killed people on our turf -- we should have caught him and been done with it instead of trying to find an excuse to invade Iraq and now having to warfronts with no exit strategy or end in sight.

Most of the troops in Iraq would not be sent to Afghanistan in the first place. Most of the troops in Iraq are apart of heavy armor divisions that would not be used in the mountains of Afghanistan to hunt for Bin Ladin, so that is a moot point about troops being diverted to Iraq which is simply false.

It is a fact that Saddam failed to account for 1,000 Liters of Anthrax, hundreds of pounds of Mustard Gas, hundreds of pounds of Sarin Gas, over 20,000 Bio/Chem capable shells just to name a few things. Saddam was in violation of 17 UN resolutions and the Gulf War Ceacefire agreement. Saddam had invaded and attacked four different countries and in the process threatened the planets energy supply with sabotage and siezure. Did Al Quada ever do that? Has Al Quada killed 1.7 million people like Saddam has? Not to make light of the huge threat from Al Quada, but Saddam was an enormous threat that the world had to deal with.

The United States has 7 times as many troops in Afghanistan as it had when it overthrew the Taliban back in 2001, so this idea that the hunt for Bin Ladin has been neglected is simply a false one.

 

[STING2]

Good post SHARKY

Sting2, perhaps you need to research more.

doesnt it prove the 99% of all al-qaeda members are there or Afghanistan. if they are being caught, it is not of its will..its because it HAS to because of pressure of USA. I welcome arrest of Al-qaeda members...but if 2 are being CAUGHT, 98 others are not only shielded but also trained. there was a report that foreign terrorist in north west pakistan will not be caught if they just register themselves somewhere. this was in BBC news

There are not 100 or 200 terrorists..they are in thousands..

1) do u know where did Hambali and his brothers get indoctrinated?

2) do you know who created and supported Taliban ?

3) where did Rassam undergo training ?

4) where did Aimal Kasi come from. ?

5) do you know about dawood Ibrahim and which government is not only providing safe haven but also helping him financially ?

6) there was a news of leak of nuke secrets..did you read that news.. ?

7) do you know about the terrorist camps in pak occupied kashmir ?

8) do you know anything about Masood Azhar ?

9) do you know how the present president got himself elected (??). you talk about democracy... Saddam was more democratic..remember he got 100% votes in election in Iraq..why he was the only candidate and he got 100% is another story


Unfortunately US is happy with the 1% it gets...and busy in Iraq..where there might be another 0.5% .

I am aware of the problems in Pakistan, but I think that the success's that the alliance with Pakistan has produced far outweigh's these problems. While there may be many radical elements within the Pakistan miltary and government, most Pakistani's are more interested in the situation with India and have no desire to commit or help spread terrorism worldwide. It is in Pakistan's interest to work with the United States because of the situation with India. Most Pakistani's realize this and are not interested in joining or supporting Al Quada.

 

[Klaus]

Well i'm affraid they play around with the USA because they don't want to be punished for their WMDs, for selling their WMDs and they also don't want to f***k up with radical Islamists in their country.
So they simply try to satisfy both sided