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Old 09-02-2004, 12:05 AM   #31
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Originally posted by Klaus
What some people don't understand that the War on Terror isn't a war which will be won by military but a war which is based on good work of intelligence agencies. intelligence agencies are the ones who can prevent a 2nd 9/11 .
Military actions at the wrong time or at the wrong place just support terrorism

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You can't force a country to democracy. The democracy movement has to start in that country.
BRAVO! Exactly my feelings.
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Old 09-02-2004, 05:17 AM   #32
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You can prevent 1000 terrorist attacks with your intelligence agencies but it only takes a single one to shatter the fascade oif safety, I would rather end the problems that are creating terrorists than have to sit on my hands watiting for an attack. The number 1 lesson of 9.11. is that fighting terrorism cannot be done by law enforcement and intelligence alone - it is a pity that many have not realized this yet.
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Old 09-02-2004, 05:48 AM   #33
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would rather end the problems that are creating terrorists than have to sit on my hands watiting for an attack.
I couldn't agree more!

Military, Inteligence and Foreign Policy have to play together to solve the problem.
Hypocracy in foreign politics simply feeds the terrorists because they can show potential followers that the other side is a "big satan" who dosn't act like he talks. (Example: supporting "good terrorists" to destabilize a country you disslike)

Intelligence is neccessary to prevent us from daily terrorist attacks, military is necessary to defend us against an IMMINENT threat.

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Just look at Japan, South Korea and many other countries where this has happened.
Japan wanted to become a "western" country, Germany was allready a democracy before hitler (Weimarer Republik) (I'm sorry, i don't know much about the history of South Korea)

I think there are situations where a Military strike is necessary but i think military strikes against terrorism are overrated because you can't win against terrorists when you are bombing their bases. They are not structured like our military, it's like bombing a single country to destroy the internet - it simply wouldn't work.

It's no big deal if they call themself "Al-Quaida", "Islambuli-Brigades" or whatever, they don't need one big mastermind behind that. They don't need huge training camps, if they want to they could simply send their people as volunteers to the US army for some years to get the basic training they need.
These men are "powered by hate" and if we don't care about the sources of their hate, we are doomed.
Of course we can't make every single person happy in this world but we can stop the majority of people to support the extremists.
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Old 09-02-2004, 05:58 AM   #34
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Their hate has nothing to do with Israeli - Arab conflict, or US imperialist colonialist whateverthefuckwordsomeacedemicwantistotossaroundist bullshit it has to do with the fascist death cult that Bin Laden and his ilk follow. They will kill for the sheer pleasure of it and the "divine right" they feel, the 9/11 hijackers were well off men, they don't fit the archetypal poor downtrodden terrorist that so many love to use because it shifts the blame from the mass murdering terrorist to the victim.

The only way to win is to defeat the ideology, the only way to do that is to stop it from spreading and remove its support - it is just like fighting communism, if you give people hope, some money and oppertunity they are less likely to support an authoritarian system, that is why I speak of a program on the scale of the Marshall plan to end the widespread support for Islamism, once that happens we can suceed in discrediting and eliminating it forever.

We are only doomed if we give up and decide not to liberate the world, wipe out despotism in all of its forms and stop appeasing terrorists by legitimizing their grievances.
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Old 09-02-2004, 08:50 AM   #35
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I agree with you here too, i was just thinking what we could have done with the money for the Iraq war if it wasn't invested for bombs but for a future plan to raise the economic wealth in that region so that people feel that our way is the better and it's not worth dying to destroy our values.
This includes, of course, fair trade with the 3rd world. Not only in high-tech products but also in agricultural economics.
And even what the new EU president mentioned, accept it that it's valid that people want to immigrate in our countries for economic reasons
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Old 09-02-2004, 09:30 AM   #36
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You cannot raise the economic wealth in the Arab world in its current state, the despotic regimes simply will not allow change because if people start to get richer they will get smarter, if they get smarter they may start to ask questions about why they get fucked over by corrupt leaders and they also might start working to overthrow them. Nothing can move forward there unless you have a clean slate, the only way to achieve that is by eliminating a significant player and pouring lots of resources into making it suceed. If Iraq suceeds over the next few decades it will encourage liberalization and democracy across the region and will win the war on terror, you cannot do this by cutting deals with dictators.

I doubt that many in the muslim world actually subscribe to the ideology of Al Qaeda, there are very few "hardcore" islamists. The Islamists offer something different than the corrupt regimes there now, that is why they are dangerous - people may have a glorious Islamic revolution but wind up decending deeper into despotism. To prevent this from happening one must introduce a competing ideology and show that it can work for all people - Christian, Jew, Hindu and Muslim. Sometimes freedom must be fought for and protected - it can be done. If Iraq is just able to establish a basic democracy with a free market in the next decade, even if there are islamic parties etc. I think the country will move forward and as it does it will move closer to where the west is. This will take decades, it will be difficult and it will cost money and lives but the alternative to this endevour is pure death and destruction and I do not want to see that come to pass.
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Old 09-02-2004, 09:46 AM   #37
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well, I agree that if we eliminate all evil
bring education and food everywhere
and help everyone's economy along
that in the end this world will be a better place

so far we seem to mainly be busy replacing one evil with the other
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Old 09-02-2004, 09:47 AM   #38
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this is not because we are blind or stupid btw
but because we only have so much time and resources ourselves
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Old 09-02-2004, 10:06 AM   #39
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What is evil about replacing baathist Iraq with an agreeable interim government and eventually an elected one? Replacing Saddams thuggish regime with an interim government - which can be replaced when the people are given free and fair elections. Is this bizarro world? Is giving people votes and the right to worship freely and live their lives on par with genocide campaigns, torture operations and starvation of the people by bribing the UN?

That is an absolutely preposterous position and many Iraqi's would disagree with you very strongly.

I just want to know, how many people here actually want Iraq to fail outright to teach GWB a lesson?
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Old 09-02-2004, 10:26 AM   #40
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
What is evil about replacing baathist Iraq with an agreeable interim government and eventually an elected one?
Interesting. So it's now the US's job to invade every country with a leader it deems evil, and replace it's leader with a government we install? Not mentioning, of course, that the original reason for the invasion wasn't even about freeing the people.


Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Replacing Saddams thuggish regime with an interim government - which can be replaced when the people are given free and fair elections.
That's assuming we ever allow them to elect their own leaders, and chance that they might elect someone we don't like.


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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I just want to know, how many people here actually want Iraq to fail outright to teach GWB a lesson?
It's already failed, so the question is moot.
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Old 09-02-2004, 10:27 AM   #41
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hey, I was in favour of the war against Iraq back then
and I still am
so if you want to label my ignorance then at least pick something that I can agree with

the war in Iraq itself was partly a result of backing Iraq against Iran
so don't act as if we haven't replaced evil by evil before

I have good hopes for Iraq
but I don't think terrorism was dealt too heavy a blow when Sadam was removed
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Old 09-02-2004, 10:35 AM   #42
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A_Wanderer, I'll be damned if I want Iraq to fail to teach GWB a lesson or whatever. If they can pull off the elections in January and have people in Iraq actually go and elect a parliament, that will be a very positive development. How can I oppose this? I don't. I'm just thinking about the power structure in that part of the world, and also the annoying Sunni Wahhabists who have been causing trouble in the Sunni triangle in the Baghdad area. It's a complicated situation. Some powerful Iraqis want a theocracy, not a democracy. Grand Ayatollas have more power than the government does right now. I'm watching Sistani, because he's without a doubt the most powerful man in Iraq. Just today there was a U.S. strike in Fallujah and the people are angry. This fighting makes me nervous, because it's making the whole country politically unstable.
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Old 09-02-2004, 10:43 AM   #43
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer


I just want to know, how many people here actually want Iraq to fail outright to teach GWB a lesson?
Yes, we're all a bunch of vendictive sons-of-bitches that would love to see the suffering of thousands in order to teach one man we don't agree with a lesson...come on!
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Old 09-02-2004, 11:11 AM   #44
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And don't forget that we created the Iran monster too in our fight against communism (and this wasn't even the most dangerous monster we created when we thought we fought for good)
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Old 09-02-2004, 11:13 AM   #45
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We could stop supporting dictators - even if they have oil.
Or at least force them to slow reforms -> democracy if they still want our support (troops/tech)
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