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Old 08-31-2004, 08:38 PM   #16
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Bush has gone from "mission accomplished" to "mission miscalculated" to "mission impossible" and now to (this is from BUSH'S OWN MOUTH in an interview with Rush Limbaugh): "I probablyneeded to be more articulate."
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Old 09-01-2004, 01:28 AM   #17
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It's nice you can be optimistic, Sting. But some societies in this world are very conservative and closed, and have drastically different ways of looking at the world that probably aren't going to be influenced by the West anytime soon. These influences come in by way of the media, for the most part. They have no concept of "progress"; that's a concept that started during the Renaissance in Europe, and the only Muslim country that it's influenced is Turkey, and that was because of one man, Ataturk. Places like Syria and Iraq will be tougher nuts to crack because there's no one like that in those countries. I mean, hell, Sistani is more powerful in Iraq than Allawi is. That's not a good sign. Sistani is a product of the Shi'ite power system, what passes for social authority in that culture, as a Grand Ayatollah. When Allawi told al-Sadr to put his guns down he did not and got away with it, then Sistani told him to do it and now al-Sadr is planning a political career. I'm always thinking of complications in the development of a political situation and see various serious impediments that will be very difficult to overcome. It's the historian in me. I know, we drive everyone crazy.
I'm speaking in terms of trends and time periods from several decades to centurys. Iraq has never been the bastion of conservative Islamic thought. Its not about to start to be either. Many people there may share religion with Iranians, but their history and the society they have grown up in has often been very different in several ways. Iraq overall has argueably been the most secular country in the Arab world.

Just look at how much Europe changed from 1900 to 2000. People said it was impossible to fix the problems in Bosnia and Kosovo and look at it now. Who would have thought in 1992 that U2 would be playing in Bosnia in 1997, just like they would play anywhere else in the world.

People in the middle east, Africa and Asia are not immune to the changes that occured in Europe in the 20th century. There are so many examples that have shown this. The World is changing and will continue to change. Capitalism and Democracy work. History is filled with societies that indeed resisted change for a very long time. But sooner or later, people adopt what works best and what gives them the best opportunity in life. Its a slow process and there are often steps backwards, but the world as a whole is moving in the right direction.
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Old 09-01-2004, 01:38 AM   #18
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Originally posted by STING2


I'm speaking in terms of trends and time periods from several decades to centurys. Iraq has never been the bastion of conservative Islamic thought. Its not about to start to be either. Many people there may share religion with Iranians, but their history and the society they have grown up in has often been very different in several ways. Iraq overall has argueably been the most secular country in the Arab world.

Just look at how much Europe changed from 1900 to 2000. People said it was impossible to fix the problems in Bosnia and Kosovo and look at it now. Who would have thought in 1992 that U2 would be playing in Bosnia in 1997, just like they would play anywhere else in the world.

People in the middle east, Africa and Asia are not immune to the changes that occured in Europe in the 20th century. There are so many examples that have shown this. The World is changing and will continue to change. Capitalism and Democracy work. History is filled with societies that indeed resisted change for a very long time. But sooner or later, people adopt what works best and what gives them the best opportunity in life. Its a slow process and there are often steps backwards, but the world as a whole is moving in the right direction.

That's an incredibly ethnocentric view.
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Old 09-01-2004, 01:57 AM   #19
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Originally posted by MaxFisher
Hey RockNRawlDoggie,

You say that since the war on terror is not completely winnable therefore the troops should come home now.
Would you also advocate stopping AIDS relief to Africa since the war on AIDS is not completely winnable? Would you advocate ceasing drug prevention programs since the war on illegal drugs is not completely winnable? Would you advocate closing down homeless shelters since the war on poverty is not completely winnable?

Bush's misguided war based on lies and faulty intelligence, unfortunately cannot
be stopped. Thanks to Bush, he's opened up a Pandora's Box. There'll
be troops in Iraq for decades probably.
You are quite correct. We can't abandon Iraq now.
If it is a "war on terror," then
why has our wonderful president stopped even mentioning the name of Bin Laden? Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, but Bin Laden did.
Unless Bush has already captured
Bin Laden, and decides to show him off
on eve of election.
Bush's insane war in Iraq. based on lies, shouldn't have been strarted in the
first place. He should've stuck with finding Bin Laden. He's really hard to spot though. He's.only close 6 feet 7 inches with a kidney machine.
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Old 09-01-2004, 06:56 AM   #20
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This war is not going to be won as long as there are people unwilling to accept that some people don't want to change, will not change, and won't be compelled to change simply because one leader is removed. What has been said already is quite true, regime change means nothing if you're still starving.

I think the war would be more succesful in its attempts and goals if 'the West' were to accept that not everyone wants democracy, and that not everyone is ready for it.

Ant.
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Old 09-01-2004, 08:26 AM   #21
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So because the elites of these countries fear democracy and liberty we should not interfere? We should take the words of those cultural studies "acedemics" and say that Islam is incompatible with any freedom - because by saying that people should suffer because they aren't ready to be free is genuinely disturbing to me, the stakes in this conflict are very high and I guarantee you that retreating from the fight and backing away from the threat would see the end of Western Civilization if not the world, ever wonder what a dozen well placed nuclear weapons could do to the global economy?

Then the argument that people are not ready for democracy, I suppose that that should excuse us from helping other people because hey - they dont deserve it, they are too brown to understand or accept such a crazy system as freedom. In fact

I think that that that type of attitude is racist and dangerous. I have no doubt that you feel that it is better to sit back and not interfere because interference causes damage but you ignore the fact that sitting back and leaving people to be fucked over by others has lead to a lot of resentment. Where do you draw the line, was it allright to liberate Europeans from Nazi occupation but it is wrong to liberate Arabs from systems of equal despotism?

Just because a woman had the misfortune to be born into a country like Saudi Arabia does that mean she shouldn't be entitled to the same fundamental human rights as one born in Western Europe?

Should we just stand by and let injustice continue because we dont wish to interfere in the cultural customs of others even if said customs are barbaric and wrong - by any humanitarian position?

Don't forget that just 60 years ago millions of lives were spent to save the world from fascist opression and protect freedom, then through another 50 years of conflict the freedom of millions more was won. The job isn't done yet, I repeat massive economic and social package to reshape the Arab world. Today we must guarantee freedom for all or there will be peace for none.

Fuck the Status Quo, Fuck Isolationism and Fucking Give Me a Free World!

We are all human beings and we all deserve fundamental human rights, these are guaranteed through liberty - end the racist double standard and accept it.

Note: I used to be a liberal - I didn't change but somehow I am became a neocon.
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Old 09-01-2004, 01:47 PM   #22
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Curiously, I heard on the radio today that Bush has changed his mind and decided that we'll win this "war". I need to find it written somewhere so I can read the exact wording.
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Old 09-01-2004, 04:16 PM   #23
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What some people don't understand that the War on Terror isn't a war which will be won by military but a war which is based on good work of intelligence agencies. intelligence agencies are the ones who can prevent a 2nd 9/11 .
Military actions at the wrong time or at the wrong place just support terrorism

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You can't force a country to democracy. The democracy movement has to start in that country.
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Old 09-01-2004, 05:06 PM   #24
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Democracy, almost by definition, is something that people do by choice, not by coersion. They have to want to vote for Party X or Candidate X. There are many highly educated people in the Arabic world who simply don't think democracy would work in their culture. It's not just Islam. It's their culture, their social structure, and their whole mindset. This has nothing to do with race, heredity or ethnicity. The Islamic religion, interestingly enough, *is* egalitarian. They all believe that they are all equal in the eyes of Allah. Sultana, the main character in Jean Sasson's "Princess Trilogy" doesn't think democracy would work in the Arabic world. She is from Saudi Arabia. She thinks, to quote the book, that "there would be a war every minute". She's a pretty well educated person; she holds a masters' degree in philosophy. Yes, it is possible for those women to get educated, although it certainly isn't easy. I think she understands her culture better than I do. I was a history major and philosophy minor in school. This is all about understanding different cultures. It's egotistical, not to mention naive, to expect the rest of the world to be like us.
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Old 09-01-2004, 06:29 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by cydewaze
Curiously, I heard on the radio today that Bush has changed his mind and decided that we'll win this "war". I need to find it written somewhere so I can read the exact wording.

who's the flip-flopper now!?!?!?
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Old 09-01-2004, 07:00 PM   #26
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Originally posted by Klaus
What some people don't understand that the War on Terror isn't a war which will be won by military but a war which is based on good work of intelligence agencies. intelligence agencies are the ones who can prevent a 2nd 9/11 .
Military actions at the wrong time or at the wrong place just support terrorism

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You can't force a country to democracy. The democracy movement has to start in that country.
Thats simply false. The Military has and will continue to play an enormous role in the war on terror. The majority of the terrorist that have been caught have actually been caught by military personal. Afghanistan would still be ruled by the Taliban and Al Quada would have its large training base if it was not for the US military. The fact is, there are to many things intelligence agencies are incapable of doing to only rely on them for the war on terror. As of right now there are nearly 30,000 coalition troops in Afghanistan. Afghanistan continued development and security will be dependent on coalition military forces and a growing Afghan military. Intelligence agencies, have their role to play, but one cannot engage on in the war on terror without the military.

A country can be brought into democracy. Just look at Japan, South Korea and many other countries where this has happened.
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Old 09-01-2004, 07:06 PM   #27
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Originally posted by Anthony
This war is not going to be won as long as there are people unwilling to accept that some people don't want to change, will not change, and won't be compelled to change simply because one leader is removed. What has been said already is quite true, regime change means nothing if you're still starving.

I think the war would be more succesful in its attempts and goals if 'the West' were to accept that not everyone wants democracy, and that not everyone is ready for it.

Ant.
Most people who are starving would defintely be willing to try something that gives them more control over their lives and better chance at prosperity. In every war there have been people in certain countries that did not want to change, but that did not prevent change from eventually taking place. Saddam was not just one leader, but a massive regime that held all of Iraq under its control in a way as brutal as the worst regimes in history.

Without regime change in Iraq, any form of change would be impossible.
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Old 09-01-2004, 07:17 PM   #28
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Originally posted by verte76
Democracy, almost by definition, is something that people do by choice, not by coersion. They have to want to vote for Party X or Candidate X. There are many highly educated people in the Arabic world who simply don't think democracy would work in their culture. It's not just Islam. It's their culture, their social structure, and their whole mindset. This has nothing to do with race, heredity or ethnicity. The Islamic religion, interestingly enough, *is* egalitarian. They all believe that they are all equal in the eyes of Allah. Sultana, the main character in Jean Sasson's "Princess Trilogy" doesn't think democracy would work in the Arabic world. She is from Saudi Arabia. She thinks, to quote the book, that "there would be a war every minute". She's a pretty well educated person; she holds a masters' degree in philosophy. Yes, it is possible for those women to get educated, although it certainly isn't easy. I think she understands her culture better than I do. I was a history major and philosophy minor in school. This is all about understanding different cultures. It's egotistical, not to mention naive, to expect the rest of the world to be like us.
The world is evolving and changing and no part of the globe is immune to that fact. Many parts of the Arab world are already changing. This is part of the reason that many terrorist are engaged in their evil acts. They mistakenly believe that western culture is a threat to their perverted idea of Islam. The 7 million Muslims living in the United States would heavily disagree.

Whether one agrees or disagrees with Globalism, Capitalism and Democracy, this is where the world is headed. That is simply the trend over the past century.

The United States shows that one can have their religion and culture, but still be apart of a different culture with a democratic system of government and a free market economy.
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Old 09-01-2004, 07:49 PM   #29
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Sure, they're changing, but not necessarily in the direction of democracy. One really ironic thing about Saddam was that ruled an officially secular state, but then the guy had himself duped that he was another Ataturk. Ataturk secularized Turkey back in the '20's. Iraq seems to me to be headed towards becoming a Shi'ite state. Look at the power a guy like Sistani, a Grand Ayatollah, has. The secular head of state, Allawi, doesn't have half his power. It's no secret that al-Sadr and others want a Shi'ite state. This is going to create real tensions with the Sunnis, especially the Wahhabists, who consider the Shi'ites infidels. This has the making of a collossal mess. I don't think we're ever going to agree on this stuff, Sting. As we say in these parts, I'm as stubborn as a mule.
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Old 09-01-2004, 11:54 PM   #30
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Sure, they're changing, but not necessarily in the direction of democracy. One really ironic thing about Saddam was that ruled an officially secular state, but then the guy had himself duped that he was another Ataturk. Ataturk secularized Turkey back in the '20's. Iraq seems to me to be headed towards becoming a Shi'ite state. Look at the power a guy like Sistani, a Grand Ayatollah, has. The secular head of state, Allawi, doesn't have half his power. It's no secret that al-Sadr and others want a Shi'ite state. This is going to create real tensions with the Sunnis, especially the Wahhabists, who consider the Shi'ites infidels. This has the making of a collossal mess. I don't think we're ever going to agree on this stuff, Sting. As we say in these parts, I'm as stubborn as a mule.
I actually find it surprising how much Sistani and the Coalition have agreed on. The number of people who desire a pure Shiate State or Sunni State is small. Although tribal culture still effects much of Iraq, Iraqi's are much more united in ways that most people forget. The fact is, the Shia fought hard and actually formed the majority of the military in the war against Shia Iran. They speak a different language than Iranians do and have had a different history and culture from Iranians despite having the same religion.

Al Sadr is an idiot and represents a tiny angry group of individuals. The majority of Shia's have been very kind and supportive of the coalition. With the exception of Al Sadr thugs, there have virtually been no attacks on coalition forces in the Shia south.

The real problem in Iraq continues to be the Sunni Triangle where the vast majority of attacks and losses have been occuring for over a year now. Members of Saddam's special Republican Guard and foreign terrorist in this area, form the bulk of the insurgency movement in Iraq.
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