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Old 02-12-2007, 10:30 PM   #46
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It's really good to see that some peoples memories extend back before 2002
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"We have heard that a half million children have died," Stahl said. "I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And -- and you know, is the price worth it?" Albright replied, "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price -- we think the price is worth it."
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Old 02-12-2007, 10:33 PM   #47
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Re: Re: Re: War!

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Originally posted by Justin24


So the brave men who died on the beaches of France and the families who sacrificed a lot for the fighting men and woman are stupid??

Ok I'll bite. As Kieran pointed out you seem to be equating the Second World War with the Iraq war.

You need to stop doing that. There are wars of necessity such as World War II and wars of choice such as the Iraq war. As has been pointed out countless times war should always be used as a last resort, after all possibilities have been exhausted—which was not the case in 2002-03.

Meanwhile, a justifiable war in Afghanistan has stumbled recently with the resurgence of the Taliban. Al
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Old 02-12-2007, 10:34 PM   #48
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How do we know that Iraq was a choice if the intelligence came from both British and American intelligence?
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Old 02-12-2007, 10:45 PM   #49
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Re: Re: Re: War!

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Originally posted by Justin24


So the brave men who died on the beaches of France and the families who sacrificed a lot for the fighting men and woman are stupid?? So anyone who joins the military is stupid since joining can lead to war?
If those "brave men" chose to start a war of aggression, then they were stupid. If they were sent to fight in a war of aggression by someone else who made the decision to go to war, then they were pawns of the stupid. But if they went to fight in an act of defence against an aggressor, then they were not stupid at all. I would suggest the first two options there are false and the third is true, thus they were not stupid.

(Though personally, I don't know why anyone would want to join the military. But that's an issue for another thread entirely ...)
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Old 02-12-2007, 10:48 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24


And Kofi and Sons made a fortune off the scandal.
And Bush & co. are making a fortune off of my(and others') tax money now through scandals. In addition, they are stealing Iraq's oil wealth.
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Old 02-12-2007, 10:55 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24
How do we know that Iraq was a choice if the intelligence came from both British and American intelligence?
Read a newspaper or watch TV EVER in the last 5 years?
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Old 02-12-2007, 11:03 PM   #52
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This has been a very good thread!WAR is my favorite topic.
The main thing is War will always exist,because man is full of greed.If I told you you could have a million dollars,but ten people would be killed on the other side of the planet ,What would your answer be?Everyone always says no,but in reality alot of people profit from war.
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Old 02-12-2007, 11:40 PM   #53
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I don't agree in war. I think nothing is ever solved with a war.

I support infiltrating agents from a world wide net of humanatarists to infiltrate an organisation kipnap its crazy leader and subject him to clockwork orange like torture of happy families, bunnies and beautiful country landscapes till he turns into a sweet little pussy - and crisis adverted!

But really, i don't agree in war, and don't think it really makes a difference - iraqi is just as shit - i also think its strange that other places in the world are facing such horrible problems (darfu r, laos etc) and no one is really doing a thing about that?
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Old 02-12-2007, 11:51 PM   #54
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I think going to war based on speeches or comments made by a foreign leader or based on loosely gathered evidence which if used in a court of law would be thrown out by a judge to be stupid.

If the Axis of Evil were so bent on destroying America, using Bush's logic, they should have attacked the US for his juvenile remarks. No, wait, they have been desperately trying to gain a deterrence or assurances to prevent an invasion by the U.S.

Using the humanitarian argument is just an excuse for justifying certain actions by certain governments. For the most part, no country acts in the best interests of another nation unless there is a benefit for itself hence our slow reaction to Darfur, Zimbabwe, etc. The reason for the Iraq conflict has nothing to do with the people of Iraq, it just sounds nice to say they are trying to build a better life for Iraqis.

I won't pretend to think that we should intervene in every problem either but don't make the Iraq conflict some kind of noble mission to protect people.
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Old 02-12-2007, 11:55 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by u2fan628
The main thing is War will always exist,because man is full of greed.
I find this to be a tremendously defeatist mindset. In any case, I'm not all too concerned about how long war will exist, but how we can avert as many instances of it as possible.

Quote:
If I told you you could have a million dollars,but ten people would be killed on the other side of the planet ,What would your answer be?Everyone always says no,but in reality alot of people profit from war.
The people who profit from war tend to be the most immoral and reprehensible people, be they soldiers who pillage and steal or CEOs of multinational corporations who are getting so rich off supplying the market created by conflict and strife that they don't really want the fighting to cease.
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Old 02-13-2007, 12:35 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by trevster2k
I think going to war based on speeches or comments made by a foreign leader or based on loosely gathered evidence which if used in a court of law would be thrown out by a judge to be stupid.

If the Axis of Evil were so bent on destroying America, using Bush's logic, they should have attacked the US for his juvenile remarks. No, wait, they have been desperately trying to gain a deterrence or assurances to prevent an invasion by the U.S.

Using the humanitarian argument is just an excuse for justifying certain actions by certain governments. For the most part, no country acts in the best interests of another nation unless there is a benefit for itself hence our slow reaction to Darfur, Zimbabwe, etc. The reason for the Iraq conflict has nothing to do with the people of Iraq, it just sounds nice to say they are trying to build a better life for Iraqis.

I won't pretend to think that we should intervene in every problem either but don't make the Iraq conflict some kind of noble mission to protect people.
Nobody acts unless they consider it in their interests, but that does not exclude a convergence of interests.
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Old 02-13-2007, 12:55 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Nobody acts unless they consider it in their interests, but that does not exclude a convergence of interests.
Yes, but some don't know the underlying reasons which I know you acknowledge regarding this conflict. For one to argue that this whole investment of hundreds of billions of dollars to save Iraqi lives is misguided. Sure, if life is better for the average Iraqi after this, great, but that is not the goal.

War = $$$$
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Old 02-13-2007, 12:59 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by trevster2k


Yes, but some don't know the underlying reasons which I know you acknowledge regarding this conflict. For one to argue that this whole investment of hundreds of billions of dollars to save Iraqi lives is misguided. Sure, if life is better for the average Iraqi after this, great, but that is not the goal.

War = $$$$
It's easier to make $$$ by simply removing sanctions and wooing Saddam back, made quite a go of it with Gaddafi.

Likewise in Iraq if they kept the Baathist political structure intact, didn't dismantle the Iraqi army and simply installed a relatively benign dictator to get the oil flowing it would be a lot easier. The fact that Dawa and the Sadrists hold the keys to the country is not consistent with the idea that Iraq has a puppet regime (of the USA, not Iran) there to allow them to steal the oil.
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Old 02-13-2007, 10:03 AM   #59
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I'll throw in a couple of cents, what the hell...

War is a very subjective thing, unfortunately it's not a black and white issue and it probably never has been.

The closest thing to a good vs. evil war would be WWII if you want to look at it in those terms. I don't believe you will find many people who will say that that war was unjustified although I will say (IMO that is) that several tactics used in that war (by both sides) may not have been that justifiable.

What I have a problem with right now is the so-called "War on Terror". Terror is a concept, it's a psychological state not some sort of physical body. How do you declare war on an abstract? More importantly how do you win a war like this and for that matter how do you even know if you are winning or loosing?

When I look at the War in Iraq, I don’t' see a justifiable war. The US and it's allies will tell you that this war generally was to:
1. Remove Saddam Hussein
2. Neutralize his stockpile of WMDs
3. Fight terror
4. Stabilize the region.

These were noble enough reasons, so far, the outcome has been:
1. Hussein was removed from power and later executed, the question I have is was he that big a threat in the long run?
2. There were no WMDs found
3. As I said before how do you fight terror? Is there less terror in the world because of this war?
5. I think we can all see that the region is nowhere close to being stable, in fact it is less stable than when Hussein was in power.

I don't know, Id like to think I'm not paranoid and that I don't see conspiracies. I would like to think that just because Dick Cheney used to be the CEO of Halliburton and that George Bush has close ties to some of the most powerful Oil companies in the world did not play any kind of factor in this war.

What I find the worst about the current situation is that the US army is committed to this. I'm not going to even try to say that I understand what it is like to be a soldier in that type of situation or even to be a family member of a soldier. But this "Bring home the troops right now" attitude disturbs me.

What I will say is that a mess has been made over there and it needs to be cleaned up. I'm sorry to say this but you have made your bed and now you must lie in it. It is incredibly irresponsible to just back out now and leave these poor people to it. It not only sets a dangerous precedent but it leaves the region in a much worse state than it ever was before the war.

I will go on record as stating I was against the war, I did not agree with it then and I certainly do not agree with it now but it does not change the fact that it has happened and you can't simply just stop now because the death toll is mounting. This is not some sort of game that you can just quit because you are loosing and take your toys home. If the amount of media coverage that we have available now was present during WWII, would the public be so agreeable with that war as well?

Just my opinions mind you, take them as you will.
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Old 02-13-2007, 05:00 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by elevated_u2_fan
I'll throw in a couple of cents, what the hell...

War is a very subjective thing, unfortunately it's not a black and white issue and it probably never has been.

The closest thing to a good vs. evil war would be WWII if you want to look at it in those terms. I don't believe you will find many people who will say that that war was unjustified although I will say (IMO that is) that several tactics used in that war (by both sides) may not have been that justifiable.

What I have a problem with right now is the so-called "War on Terror". Terror is a concept, it's a psychological state not some sort of physical body. How do you declare war on an abstract? More importantly how do you win a war like this and for that matter how do you even know if you are winning or loosing?

When I look at the War in Iraq, I don’t' see a justifiable war. The US and it's allies will tell you that this war generally was to:
1. Remove Saddam Hussein
2. Neutralize his stockpile of WMDs
3. Fight terror
4. Stabilize the region.

These were noble enough reasons, so far, the outcome has been:
1. Hussein was removed from power and later executed, the question I have is was he that big a threat in the long run?
2. There were no WMDs found
3. As I said before how do you fight terror? Is there less terror in the world because of this war?
5. I think we can all see that the region is nowhere close to being stable, in fact it is less stable than when Hussein was in power.

I don't know, Id like to think I'm not paranoid and that I don't see conspiracies. I would like to think that just because Dick Cheney used to be the CEO of Halliburton and that George Bush has close ties to some of the most powerful Oil companies in the world did not play any kind of factor in this war.

What I find the worst about the current situation is that the US army is committed to this. I'm not going to even try to say that I understand what it is like to be a soldier in that type of situation or even to be a family member of a soldier. But this "Bring home the troops right now" attitude disturbs me.

What I will say is that a mess has been made over there and it needs to be cleaned up. I'm sorry to say this but you have made your bed and now you must lie in it. It is incredibly irresponsible to just back out now and leave these poor people to it. It not only sets a dangerous precedent but it leaves the region in a much worse state than it ever was before the war.

I will go on record as stating I was against the war, I did not agree with it then and I certainly do not agree with it now but it does not change the fact that it has happened and you can't simply just stop now because the death toll is mounting. This is not some sort of game that you can just quit because you are loosing and take your toys home. If the amount of media coverage that we have available now was present during WWII, would the public be so agreeable with that war as well?

Just my opinions mind you, take them as you will.
It would depend on wich media outlet was covering the War.
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