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Old 12-13-2004, 07:38 AM   #31
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the powers that be of the Church were seeking a way to "sell" virginity to their congregations?
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Old 12-13-2004, 07:42 AM   #32
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the powers that be of the Church were seeking a way to "sell" virginity to their congregations?
i can't contemplate the immaculate conception without pondering the madonna/whore dichotomy, and then i get angry.
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Old 12-13-2004, 08:33 AM   #33
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
For those of you who believe it, why would God have to creat his own son in a manner completely different from every other person on the planet?
Because Jesus is different than any other person on the planet, being fully God and fully man.

Why Mary as the surrogate, I don't know.


To the original question, is the virgin birth outside the capability of God? Is there some reason God could not place a child in the womb of Mary?
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Old 12-13-2004, 10:10 AM   #34
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I believe it happened.

I see no reason why faith and reason should be at odds. As Pope John Paul II once said, "Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth and the spirit cannot take rise without both."

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Old 12-13-2004, 10:35 AM   #35
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Originally posted by dandy


i can't contemplate the immaculate conception without pondering the madonna/whore dichotomy, and then i get angry.
The Immaculate Conception is not about Mary becoming pregnant.

It is about Mary's mother becoming pregnant.

THis is a common mistake.
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Old 12-13-2004, 10:56 AM   #36
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The Immaculate Conception is not about Mary becoming pregnant.

It is about Mary's mother becoming pregnant.

THis is a common mistake.
Doesn't also suggest that Mary is without sin?

I get lost as to why this concept exists.
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Old 12-13-2004, 10:58 AM   #37
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i just learned something new. thanks, dread.

and, yes, i agree with nbc--it's confusing as heck.
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Old 12-13-2004, 04:42 PM   #38
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
For those of you who believe it, why would God have to create his own son in a manner completely different from every other person on the planet?
Because sin is transmitted biologically?
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Old 12-13-2004, 05:21 PM   #39
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historical evidence doesn't seem to support that it was an accepted tradition in the early church and that it was incorporated later.


this is what i understand also.


the story was changed to serve certain purposes.
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Old 12-13-2004, 05:23 PM   #40
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Originally posted by speedracer


Because sin is transmitted biologically?
BINGO!!!!!!!

And that led to the Immaculate Conception. This is the doctrine that Mary's soul was placed inside of her developing body in the womb by God, so that she too would not have the transfer of Original Sin.

Jesus, to be free from sin had to have a Mother and a Father free from sin.

See, God can create life inside a woman's womb without a male being part of it, but he cannot create Jesus without original sin, he does not have that power because MAry would transfer her link to original sin to Jesus. So God, did not create mary the same way he created Jesus. She had human parents creating her human body through fornication just like you or I, but instead of her soul developing like you or I he placed a soul in her free without sin.

Makes sence?

Shoot, my headache just got worse.
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Old 12-13-2004, 05:25 PM   #41
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Dang theologians...lol Forgot that Mary had to be sin free too....not just God. His power is limited....
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Old 12-14-2004, 03:22 AM   #42
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Interesting issue in all of this being the obvious conclusion that sex of any kind is automatically SIN. Even for Mary's legally married parents to conceive her was seen by some early Church folk as tainting her and therefore Jesus with sin. To me it smacks of one of those early heresies that I forget the name of...the one that says that only the spiritual and the non-physical parts of us are truly good.
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Old 12-14-2004, 05:13 AM   #43
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That CNN special about the two Marys is on again this Saturday the 18th 8PM ET if anyone's interested
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Old 12-14-2004, 06:25 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
Interesting issue in all of this being the obvious conclusion that sex of any kind is automatically SIN. Even for Mary's legally married parents to conceive her was seen by some early Church folk as tainting her and therefore Jesus with sin. To me it smacks of one of those early heresies that I forget the name of...the one that says that only the spiritual and the non-physical parts of us are truly good.
You're talking about the Gnostics. This philosophy had alot of appeal to alot of people all the way through the Middle Ages in Europe. It spread all over Europe and got so powerful that they had an actual Crusade against it in France in the thirteenth century. The Church really felt threatened by this movement and they finally just squashed it. I don't think it went away, it just went "underground". I wouldn't be surprised if there were Gnostic groups today.
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Old 12-14-2004, 06:45 AM   #45
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Originally posted by verte76
I wouldn't be surprised if there were Gnostic groups today.
There are. From what I understand, it's a movement that has been growing over the last 50 years. I don't think it'll ever see the large numbers of the first/second century, but it's becoming more popular nonetheless.

Remember the movie Bruce Almighty? Some of the major doctrines of Gnosticism were presented in that film. Sneeky Hollywood.
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