Vice Presidential Debate

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I don't think Cheney won at all. I think he was evasive and snide. He looked and acted as if he couldn't believe people had the audacity to ask HIM questions.
 
oooh wow Chris Matthews flogging a Republican MSNBC contributor for defending Cheney's denial of saying Hussein-Al Qaeda connection
.............very cool
Xavier
 
pub crawler said:
Wow, sharky, you're actually cheering me up. ;) (You should fucking be running the Kerry/Edwards Campaign).

Cheney is slimy and has slimeballs working for him. It's not just Cheney -- its soooo Rove. And work for the K/E campaign? I deal with enough political infighting in my office now. ;) Although....I do hate my job and need a new one.....

Chris Matthews is making mince meat of Republican Ben Ginsberg on MSNBC. The GOP needs to fire Ben. You GOPers are lucky he's not the VP nominee.
 
sharky said:


What are you talking about? Iraq WAS NOT part of the coalition. We ATTACKED THEM. We can't attack a country that is part a coalition. If Iraq were an ally, we would never have gone into the damn country with tanks. If you want to include the "Iraqi military" that's fine but then also include all the civilians we have killed. There is no Iraqi military until the Iraqi forces are controlled by Iraq. They are being helped by the U.S. by alot.

The sacrifices of our allies is great but only 10% of allied deaths were not U.S. soldiers. 10%! The Poles have said they are pulling out. And the Ukraine? How many soldiers have they brought to the cause? 100? 1,000? No way.

..... it is October 2004 and Iraq has been apart of the coalition for over a year now! My friends work with the Iraqi military EVERY DAY! The United States military and the Iraqi military DO NOT MURDER CIVILIANS! That is done by the terrorist the coalition is fighting there.

There is an Iraqi Government, that has a seat at the United Nations. The Iraqi Government does control the Iraqi Military! There are over 100,000 Iraqi Troops and Police as of October 2004. They are doing an amazing job in helping to defeat the terrorist who are killing their childern, spouses, friends, parents and other family members.

I believe it is WRONG to ignore the sacrifice that Iraqi troops are making every day in large numbers along side are soldiers. The Majority of the operation recently conducted in Summera to clear out insurgents was conducted by the IRAQI military! Over 100 insurgents were killed and many more were captured!

I've got news for John Kerry and John Edwards. The French and Germans are never going to participate militaryly on the ground in Iraq nor would their participation secure victory! It is the Iraqi military that is currently growing in size and capability that will allow the United States to withdraw its forces and who will ultimately keep Iraqi democracy and its people secure and safe over the long run. Kerry/Edwards need to wake up and realize what is going on on the ground in Iraq because all they are doing is creating things that are simply false in their attempts to get elected.

Oh and by the Way, over 3,000 UKrainians have served in Iraq and the current number there is 1,576! Ukrainians provided security for my best friends Helicopter Squadran on his first tour of duty in Iraq in 2003!

I think that it is wrong to attack the contributions of coalition countries and we all need to start recognizing the massive contribution that the Iraqi military is making every day! Right now as we speak, there are young Iraqi men lined up to join the military in Iraq, despite the fact that recruiting centers in Iraq are the #1 target of terrorist bombings!
 
I'd love to see Ben Stein, speaking of Bens, doing spin control post-debate. ;)

Seriously!

And my $0.02 ($0.0137 Canadian)...

I thought Edwards looked all right. Like Screaming Flower, I was expecting more cool, more smiles. He did okay, which I think is honestly all you can expect against Cheney.

Cheney really shocked me on the gay marriage issue. I do feel very badly for him when it's brought up, knowing that he's really caught between a rock and a hard place. I thought he did extremely well with staying composed and dignified, and Edwards was very conciliatory towards him on that.

Did anyone catch at the end where Edwards thanked Cheney but not the other way around? ;)

Nicer manners...just one more thing we :heart: love :heart: about JE. ;) ;)
 
I would say Edwards won this debate, simply because he was always talking TO us, while Cheany seems to like talking AT us, if that makes any sense.

As for the subject matter, it's nothing new. You know, it's like you can ram it in as many times as you like 'Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11, Saddam has no links to Al Queda, etc etc etc', and Cheany and Bush will just be totally oblivious to it. It's one of their biggest weaknesses, they absolutely refuse to even think about admitting they've made any mistakes.

And please, don't sit here and try to tell me that Bono is in favor of Iraq or that he shares right-wing points of views. Please. Bono kisses ass with the right because he needs to be in their good graces for Africa-related reasons, because THEY are in power. That's it. But if Bono is just alone in his home, talking to friends about politics, he's all left. Anyone here that's followed this band through the years, I don't think would even suggest that Bono all of a sudden became a right-winger. He doesn't support Iraq, he DID support Afghanistan. I didn't have too much of a problem with Afghanistan either, Osama and Al Queda were there, and THEY were responsible for 9/11. We had a chance to get Osama even, and it is my contention, along with many others, that Bush blew it. Then Iraq happened, and it was completely niether here nor there. The Iraqi invasion is helping Al Queda, not hurting it. We are actually helping the people that planned and carried out 9/11. Imagine that.

Anyway, I'm off-topic. I think Edwards won. He's just much more approachable. Cheany can really be slimy sometimes.
 
DaveC said:


Hurrah for rhetoric!! :rolleyes:

Oh, and could you please show me a quote where Bono supports the war?

In the year end 2001 issue of HOT PRESS, Bono clearly says that he supports the war in Afganistan! He also clearly states for anyone that did not know already that he is NOT a pacifist. I picked up this issue while I was in Dublin on Holiday.
 
DaveC said:


Of course. How could I be so naive? The Democrats are obviously evil and would stoop to that kind of a low. :tsk:

Those are online polls that anyone can take. Come on now, pay attention at least.

If you do some research, you will realize that any online poll is NOT scientific and can be easily manipulated!
 
Let's be clear: Chris Matthews exposed Ben Ginsberg, Dick Cheney, and the rest of the GOP as LIARS on the alleged connection between Iraq and Al-Qaeda by showing videotape where Cheney contradicted himself between what he said last year on Meet the Press and here on this VP debate. You can't have it both ways and use a connection to start a war and then deny it next year when you are proven dead WRONG.

The truth HURTS. And don't try changing the subject in ANY rebuttals to this post. They lied. End of story.

AJ
 
Congressional auditors have said that the contracts received by Halliburton met the legal guidelines put forth in giving a contract without competition--because Halliburton was the only company with the capability to perform some of the work.

Edwards also said that "They sent 40,000 American troops into Iraq without the body armor they needed." General Peter Pace, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs disagrees saying that "every soldier and Marine on the ground had body armor."

Edwards said that we have spent 200 billion on Iraq when it is clear as the Vice President pointed out that 120 billion is the number and the rest of the money Edwards is referring to is for Afghanistan and the global war on terror.

Cheney did say that Iraq supported terrorism:
"Concern about Iraq specifically focused on the fact that Saddam Hussein had been, for years, listed on the state sponsor of terror, that they he had established relationships with Abu Nidal, who operated out of Baghdad; he paid $25,000 to the families of suicide bombers; and he had an established relationship with Al Qaida."
He also stated that "The report also points out that at one point some of Zarqawi's people were arrested. Saddam personally intervened to have them released, supposedly at the request of Zarqawi"
Not disputed opinions but facts.

Edwards did not respond to the question of would Saddam Hussein would still be in power had he and Mr. Kerry been in office.

Edwards dodged the "Global Test" question by saying "Well, let me say, first, he said in the same segment — I don't remember precisely where it was connected with what you just read — but he said, point blank, "We will never give anyone a veto over the security of the United States of America."

Ms. Ifill said that "French and German officials have both said they have no intention even if John Kerry is elected of sending any troops into Iraq for any peacekeeping effort. Does that make your effort or your plan to internationalize this effort seem kind of naive?" Edwards responded by dodging this question as well. "Well, let's start with what we know. What we know is that the president and the vice president have not done the work to build the coalition that we need — dramatically different than the first Gulf War. We know that they haven't done it, and we know they can't do it."

Mr. Edwards did not explain why he missed what Mr. Cheney called " a lot of key votes: on tax policy, on energy, on Medicare reform." Mr. Cheney also said that he had " one of the worst attendance records in the United States Senate." Along with the classic line: "Now, in my capacity as vice president, I am the president of Senate, the presiding officer. I'm up in the Senate most Tuesdays when they're in session.The first time I ever met you was when you walked on the stage tonight."
 
deep said:


Can we say it together

RIGTH WAR
RIGHT PLACE
RIGHT TIME

I know John Kerry does not have a clue about where he stands on Iraq and was against the use of military force to remove Saddam's military from Kuwait. The Majority of the planets energy supplies lies in this area, and Kerry does not have a clue about how he would handle a dictator that had invaded and attacked four different countries, was in violation of 17 UN resolutions, had murdered 1.7 million people and failed to VERIFIABLY DISARM of all WMD.

John Kerry supported a war that he said was the wrong war, at the wrong place at the wrong time!:eyebrow:
 
Whew. If the FOX poll shows Edwards won, then the Bush team should be reallly concerned.
 
STING2 said:


I'd like to inform you that there many U2 fans who support BUSH! Just in this forum there are over 50 U2 fans that will be voting for him! One of the biggest U2 fans I know is currently flying combat missions in Iraq with the Marines on his second tour of duty there. He is a Republican and supports Bush!

Even BONO supports Bush on the war in Afghanistan!

So lets make some things clear. U2 are not pacifist, and a large number of their fans are Republicans and do support BUSH.



A little testy are we? I don't think anyone said anything about Bono being a pacifists in this thread or that there weren't any Republican U2 fans. Where is this hostility coming from?

Unscientific polls that Democrats have staffed people to vote on in order to give the appearence of victory.

This is pretty ironic coming from one of the people who post the most polls in this forum.

Dick Cheney never said that Saddam was responsible for 9/11! Who ever claims that is simply wrong!

Twisting once again?! There have been numerous quotes posted in here where Cheney has suggested that Saddam had a part in 9/11.
 
on a lighter note my very liberal fiance from Mass says..

Dick Cheney and GW =Curious George and the Man With The Yellow Hat:D

I say
Kerry and Edwards = Lurch and the little silky pony boy:sexywink:

db9
 
namkcuR said:
I would say Edwards won this debate, simply because he was always talking TO us, while Cheany seems to like talking AT us, if that makes any sense.

As for the subject matter, it's nothing new. You know, it's like you can ram it in as many times as you like 'Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11, Saddam has no links to Al Queda, etc etc etc', and Cheany and Bush will just be totally oblivious to it. It's one of their biggest weaknesses, they absolutely refuse to even think about admitting they've made any mistakes.

And please, don't sit here and try to tell me that Bono is in favor of Iraq or that he shares right-wing points of views. Please. Bono kisses ass with the right because he needs to be in their good graces for Africa-related reasons, because THEY are in power. That's it. But if Bono is just alone in his home, talking to friends about politics, he's all left. Anyone here that's followed this band through the years, I don't think would even suggest that Bono all of a sudden became a right-winger. He doesn't support Iraq, he DID support Afghanistan. I didn't have too much of a problem with Afghanistan either, Osama and Al Queda were there, and THEY were responsible for 9/11. We had a chance to get Osama even, and it is my contention, along with many others, that Bush blew it. Then Iraq happened, and it was completely niether here nor there. The Iraqi invasion is helping Al Queda, not hurting it. We are actually helping the people that planned and carried out 9/11. Imagine that.

Anyway, I'm off-topic. I think Edwards won. He's just much more approachable. Cheany can really be slimy sometimes.

Members of the US military in Iraq have engaged and killed members of Al Quada. If you have some tangible evidence to prove that invading Iraq has helped Al Quada, please show it. Has Al Quada replaced the huge operation in Afganistan that it had prior to 9/11 anywhere in the world? Instead of presuming that it has helped them, please show specifically how the invasion of Iraq has helped Al Quada.

Even though I have met Bono, I don't claim to know all his political beliefs or what he says among friends. The Fact is, most of BONO's political beliefs are unknown among a variety of issues. Its wrong to take certain causes BONO was for in specific area's and extropolate them to other causes and issues for which BONO or any other member of the band has never taken a stand on.

BONO supported Bush on the war in Afghanistan and was against the war in Iraq. I know BONO is not a right winger and NEVER CLAIMED that he was either. So lets stop these extrapolations about what people say and believe.
 
paxetaurora said:


Ever?

Not even once?

Not ever?

What I meant is that it is not a policy like some in here believe. Those that have committed a crime are being prosecuted. The men and women of US military are doing everything in their power to save the lives of Iraqi citizens who are being targeted by terrorist!
 
Hawk269 said:
Let's be clear: Chris Matthews exposed Ben Ginsberg, Dick Cheney, and the rest of the GOP as LIARS on the alleged connection between Iraq and Al-Qaeda by showing videotape where Cheney contradicted himself between what he said last year on Meet the Press and here on this VP debate. You can't have it both ways and use a connection to start a war and then deny it next year when you are proven dead WRONG.

The truth HURTS. And don't try changing the subject in ANY rebuttals to this post. They lied. End of story.

AJ

Cheney did not say in that clip that Saddam was behind 9/11! He stated that the war in Iraq would deny the terrorist of a potential base and supplier in the war on terrorism. Saddam Hussien was sending aid to terrorist in Israel who were walking into cafe's and disco's bombing civilians.

Chris Matthews is a liberal who has made more mistakes an extrapolations than I care to mention. He knows Edwards was crushed and was anxious to show something for his party.

OH, this place is called FREE YOUR MIND. Welcome to rebuttal city. No one has EVER been proven to have lied of anything in this administration! Its time to stop abusing the word!
 
STING2 said:


Members of the US military in Iraq have engaged and killed members of Al Quada. If you have some tangible evidence to prove that invading Iraq has helped Al Quada, please show it. Has Al Quada replaced the huge operation in Afganistan that it had prior to 9/11 anywhere in the world? Instead of presuming that it has helped them, please show specifically how the invasion of Iraq has helped Al Quada.

Even though I have met Bono, I don't claim to know all his political beliefs or what he says among friends. The Fact is, most of BONO's political beliefs are unknown among a variety of issues. Its wrong to take certain causes BONO was for in specific area's and extropolate them to other causes and issues for which BONO or any other member of the band has never taken a stand on.

BONO supported Bush on the war in Afghanistan and was against the war in Iraq. I know BONO is not a right winger and NEVER CLAIMED that he was either. So lets stop these extrapolations about what people say and believe.

You want proof that the war has helped Al-Queda? Watch the news, man. These be-headings that keep happening? Some of that is Al-Queda. But the big thing is that Iraq has become a haven for terrorists like Al Queda to train their newer members, to build up. This is post-Saddam Iraq I'm referring to, of course. The war is helping Al-Queda because they are NOT our main focus right now. We've taken our eye off the ball. They're not under our microscope anymore and that gives them the freedom to operate and train and plan and build up in general. It's not that complicated of a concept.
 
STING2 said:


Cheney did not say in that clip that Saddam was behind 9/11! He stated that the war in Iraq would deny the terrorist of a potential base and supplier in the war on terrorism. Saddam Hussien was sending aid to terrorist in Israel who were walking into cafe's and disco's bombing civilians.

Chris Matthews is a liberal who has made more mistakes an extrapolations than I care to mention. He knows Edwards was crushed and was anxious to show something for his party.

OH, this place is called FREE YOUR MIND. Welcome to rebuttal city. No one has EVER been proven to have lied of anything in this administration! Its time to stop abusing the word!

Crushed? Did you even watch the debate? It was pretty even. You could make the arguement for either side winning it by a slim margin. But nobody was crushed. And I'm not even going to say anything about this administration's lying. It's useless with you. You're not going to change your mind.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


A little testy are we? I don't think anyone said anything about Bono being a pacifists in this thread or that there weren't any Republican U2 fans. Where is this hostility coming from?



This is pretty ironic coming from one of the people who post the most polls in this forum.



Twisting once again?! There have been numerous quotes posted in here where Cheney has suggested that Saddam had a part in 9/11.

Read what I was responding to and I think you will understand. When someone says, "I can't believe I have to say this on a U2 board" and that they need to go throw up, its the same obvious idea of how can you be a Bush supporter or a Republican and be a U2. I'm sick and tired of people claiming that U2 supports this cause or that cause when they have never made a statement on that cause and that being a U2 fan is inconsistent with being a Republican or a Bush supporter.

The polls I posts are scientific polls, these polls are not!

The video Chris Matthews showed, did not show Dick Cheney saying that Saddam was behind 9/11. If you have a qoute by Dick Cheney where he CLEARLY states that Saddam was behind 9/11, I would like to see it.
 
namkcuR said:


You want proof that the war has helped Al-Queda? Watch the news, man. These be-headings that keep happening? Some of that is Al-Queda. But the big thing is that Iraq has become a haven for terrorists like Al Queda to train their newer members, to build up. This is post-Saddam Iraq I'm referring to, of course. The war is helping Al-Queda because they are NOT our main focus right now. We've taken our eye off the ball. They're not under our microscope anymore and that gives them the freedom to operate and train and plan and build up in general. It's not that complicated of a concept.

I have friends in Iraq which inform me of things the NEWS never talks about! Can you prove that any of the beheadings was done by a member of Al Quada with the exception of Al Zarqari who was in Iraq prior to the invasion? If so, please list which specific beheading the the evidence that shows that Al Quada members were responsible for it.

The United States has NEVER taken its Eye of the ball. The forces in Iraq are primarily Armored and Mechanized Divisions that would not be used in the Mountains of Afghanistan to hunt Al Quada. The United States has 7 times the number of troopsin Afghanistan as it did when the Taliban were thrown out of power, so this idea that the USA took its eye of the ball is rubish. The CIA and FBI have captured 2/3s of Al Quada's leadership and are currently working all across the world with other countries to catch more. This whole idea that the eye is off the ball is a myth being pushed by the democratic party!

Please tell me where you know Al Quada is operating and training on the level they were in Afghanistan prior to 9/11?
 
DaveC said:


Oh man, I'm not even gonna TOUCH that one... :shame:

If there was solid proof of a lie, the President would have been impeached by now. The Democrats would of swormed over such evidence like flies on dung.
 
STING2 said:


If there was solid proof of a lie, the President would have been impeached by now. The Democrats would of swormed over such evidence like flies on dung.

You really don't get it do you? First off, TONS of democrats have been jumping all over Bush for the lies for a long time now. And as far as impeachment goes, you pretty much need an admission of guilt from the president for it. Nixon, the admission was in the form of the tapes, and we all know he would have been booted if he hadn't resigned. Clinton? He wasn't even considered for impeachment until he admitted what he did on national television. As long as Bush doesn't admit that he lied about these things, it's highly doubtful there will be anything even close to an impeachment.
 
STING2 said:


Cheney did not say in that clip that Saddam was behind 9/11! He stated that the war in Iraq would deny the terrorist of a potential base and supplier in the war on terrorism. Saddam Hussien was sending aid to terrorist in Israel who were walking into cafe's and disco's bombing civilians.

Chris Matthews is a liberal who has made more mistakes an extrapolations than I care to mention. He knows Edwards was crushed and was anxious to show something for his party.

OH, this place is called FREE YOUR MIND. Welcome to rebuttal city. No one has EVER been proven to have lied of anything in this administration! Its time to stop abusing the word!

Welcome to FACT CITY! I will use quotes that even YOU cannot refute, no matter how desperately you try. You can call Chris Matthews a liberal and SAY anything. But what you SAY does not change the FACTS! Let's go to the RECORD, my friend:


From the Washington Post:
"The reason I keep insisting that there was a relationship between Iraq and Saddam and al Qaeda [is] because there was a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda," Bush told reporters after a Cabinet meeting at the White House.

Bush said he had called Saddam Hussein a threat "because he had used weapons of mass destruction against his own people. He was a threat because he was a sworn enemy to the United States of America, just like al Qaeda. Now, he was a threat because he had terrorist connections, not only al Qaeda connections but other connections to terrorist organizations."

As recently as Monday, Cheney said in a speech that Hussein "had long-established ties with al Qaeda."

Bush, in his speech aboard an aircraft carrier on May 1, 2003, asserted: "The liberation of Iraq is a crucial advance in the campaign against terror. We've removed an ally of al Qaeda and cut off a source of terrorist funding."

"We didn't do anything to provoke the attack of 9/11. We were attacked by the terrorists, and we've responded forcefully and aggressively."

From cnn.com:
In June, Cheney said "we don't know" whether Iraq was involved in 9/11.

In September 2003, Cheney said Iraq under Saddam had been "the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us under assault now for many years, but most especially on 9/11."


HOWEVER, during the debate with Edwards, Cheney said, "The senator has got his facts wrong. I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11, but there's clearly an established Iraqi track record with terror."

Now do you want to continue this little merry-go-round or do you want to GET REAL?

Let's put 2+2 together. Bush and Cheney consistently link Iraq to Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda was proven to be directly responsible for 9/11. So you are either suggesting that Al-Qaeda was not responsible for 9/11 or you are just denying that Bush and Cheney have been linking Iraq and 9/11 as a basis for an unjustifiable war, which is clearly a position that a reasonable person would not agree with based on the quotes above.

I'll continue this dance all night long, except I will be using quotes and facts and you will be using your opinion and rhetoric.

Have a good one.

AJ
 
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