Vatican to scapegoat, purge gay priests - Page 3 - U2 Feedback

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Old 08-29-2005, 03:45 PM   #31
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That is so stupid. Why the fuck should someone's sexual orientation matter in regards to whether or not they're a priest?

Argh.

Angela
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Old 08-29-2005, 03:56 PM   #32
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Originally posted by anitram
I think some people (at least ones I know) continue to give money because it goes to Catholic charities they support and hold dear to their hearts. So it's a bit of a double edged sword for them - like one said to me, you don't cut your nose off to spite your face.
There are always several charities doing similar work, so I'd just switch away from the faith-based ones...or at least that particular faith-based one.

For me, the nose would have been cut off if I continued to give to the offering. I guess it just depends on what you find acceptable -- but I realise that many people are very attached to their faith/church, and that is an attachment I can never quite understand as I have never felt that kind of attachment to any faith.
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Old 08-29-2005, 04:03 PM   #33
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But honestly now it is starting to get to me personally. I don't ask anyone else in here to answer for their religious/atheist/whatever beliefs and observances, so I don't wish to answer for mine anymore.
I'm sorry, MrsS, this is probably directed at me, and I didn't mean to offend you. My question about why wait for them to change was really more of a rhetorical question, not something that I expected you to answer, but more something that I would ask anyone--myself included--to contemplate when looking at why any of us maintain certain affiliations when we disagree with fundamental principles within those affiliations. While I appreciate the complexities involved in personal faith and religion, I at the same time rather unapologetically ask Catholics why they continue to support a religion that protects pedophiles and discriminates against women and gays. And again, it's not a question I expect anyone to answer in this moment but to contemplate within themselves.

My mother, for example, has been a devout Presbyterian for 50 years. When the issue came up some years ago about allowing gay ministers, she was prepared to leave the church over that issue. Now that can't be easy for a 75 year old woman whose church is basically her life. But this, in her mind, was a huge betrayal of what she truly believed in her heart about the appropriateness of gays as ministers. Never mind that she and I have argued about this for years; she will never change her mind, she's of a certain generation, and from the south at that, and there is no changing her mind. I've brought gays and lesbians to her dinner table for 25 years and she's been nothing but wonderful. When my best friend, a gay man, died of cancer a few years ago, she sent his partner (whom she'd never met) a large sum of money to help cover the medical costs (since of course their committed relationship of 12 years meant nothing to anyone legally so my friend could not benefit from his partner's insurance coverage). She did it because she said it was the Christian thing to do. So this woman does not have anything personally against gays. She simply has an issue with them having a role as ministers in the church. I will disagree loudly until the day she dies but I had to respect her for her willingness to take a stand and walk her talk.

That is all I would ask anyone to do. There comes a time for everyone in different ways when we ask ourselves these kinds of questions. One time for me was when the publishing house I worked for was bought by Rupert Murdoch and we suddenly became the right-wing publisher. I gave it a year after that to see if it was going to get better, and when it didn't, I quit.

So honestly, I'm not asking you to answer to me anything at all. I certainly would not want to be put in that position at all, although I have gone up against the firing squad here a few times about my beliefs. But I think these are valid questions any practicing Christian with progressive values would be asking themselves and I appreciate that that inner searching takes courage and conviction and can take a long time.
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Old 08-29-2005, 04:15 PM   #34
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Originally posted by melon
The Vatican banning all gay priests? So who are they going to have left *for* priests?
I was thinking the same exact thing. My father went through the seminary and told me more than half of the people he studied with were homosexual.
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Old 08-29-2005, 04:28 PM   #35
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Can priests be viewed as actually having a sexual orientation? I mean especially when they are actual priests, not before they're admitted. Because, they aren't allowed to show any signs of attraction to anyone sexually. And that attraction is generally the measure of what sexual orientation one is.
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Old 08-29-2005, 06:19 PM   #36
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i still think it's a scapegoating issue.

i think we can all agree -- and any psychiatrist would confirm -- that pedophiles are neither hetero nor homosexual, they are pedophiles. also, most children who are abuse are usually females, and it is usually by an older male relative. and while there were girls who were abused by priests, yes, it was mostly boys who were abused, but i think much of that comes from the convenience of molesting a boy than a girl. quite simply, a man and a boy can be placed in situations where abuse could occur, and the same cannot be said for a man and a young girl. also, the likelihood of a boy coming forth and accusing a man of molestation is doubly difficult, especially in the past, because the child would fear being labled homosexual. thus, it's much easier for the church, which has a long and sustained record of condemning the existence of homosexuality, to pin the blame for the sex abuse scandal onto that which they are already against, and it is imbued with subtext that says, essentially, "well, now you see what's so bad about homosexuality, don't you?"

what's sad is that the church is forgetting that 99% of it's priests are not pedophiles, gay or straight, and that making all the good gay priests out there stuffer for the sins of pedophiles is simply unconscionable.

but, hey, it's still socially acceptable (and legally sanctioned) to discriminate against gay people, so what has the church go to lose?

other than a huge portion of it's clergy?
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Old 08-29-2005, 08:03 PM   #37
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What I think most disturbing is that it would lead me to believe the POPE thinks that gay men are pedophiles.....
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Old 08-29-2005, 08:37 PM   #38
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Originally posted by indra
I have a question that's a bit off topic, but it does relate to my feelings for the issue. My question is a Catholic friend once mentioned that her family was told how much money they were expected to give to the Church in offerings and they were chastised if the amount they gave wasn't considered enough. Is this a common practice, or was it just some renagade parish?

Guess it depends on the parish. I've heard the same thing around where I live. Some of the churches are big on guilting you.
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Old 08-29-2005, 08:47 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
The Vatican banning all gay priests? So who are they going to have left *for* priests?

At least more people now know the true colors of the Catholic Church, and I hope more people will register their disgust by ending their contributions to the church and, even better, no longer attending their services. Otherwise, it is implicit support for their bigotry.

Melon

Where did you position yourself on the banning of women priests? Did you do so with protest before you were estranged from the church? Did that estrange you too? Or wasn't that your fight?
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Old 08-29-2005, 09:20 PM   #40
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Originally posted by Irvine511

but, hey, it's still socially acceptable (and legally sanctioned) to discriminate against gay people, so what has the church go to lose?

Not here, it's not. Legally there is no grounds for discrimination. I am sure it certainly happens, as it happens to any discriminated group in very veiled ways.

And I couldn't really give a fuck what the pope thinks, on gay men, paedophiles, or other. His head is further up his arse than his predecessor and his church is a lost institution. I know some fabulous people who are Roman Catholic, like Mrs S, and my grandmother. Their support of their own religion doesn't equal support of the moral shortfalls of the church. I know these 2 examples I've mentioned are adamantly against discrimination and speak out about it the same way anyone else does. But we dont need to go over this ground again. The blame and problem lies only and solely with those who are bigoted - church leaders on the whole, and allow bigotry to continue - govts, church, it's members. Those who sit back silently while their churches discriminate, also guilty.


I want to know when the bigoted religious will spit out a goddanmed apology. I'm fed up to my back teeth with hearing about how religion is being forced out and those of any persuasion are persecuted. Give me a fucking break. The church (and most of them) have some serious explaining and apologising. What age is everyone living in? It's time society stopped.
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Old 08-30-2005, 05:55 AM   #41
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I didn't want to post anymore in this thread, but I had to thank you Angela Harlem for what you said about me and that issue in general. I appreciate that so much.
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Old 08-30-2005, 07:17 AM   #42
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
What I think most disturbing is that it would lead me to believe the POPE thinks that gay men are pedophiles.....


lots of people think this.

you've heard the old canard, "i don't have any problems with you, just so long as you stay away from my children."

nothing, absolutely nothing, makes me angrier than the conflation of homosexuality wtih pedophilia.
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Old 08-30-2005, 07:34 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
nothing, absolutely nothing, makes me angrier than the conflation of homosexuality wtih pedophilia.
I find nothing more disgusting than children (and old people, while we're at it). In fact, as I get older, I find 18-21 year olds to be disgusting, and I imagine that that age limit will raise as my mind continues to mature.

And, yet, we have people out there who had been salivating over the Olsen twins, counting down the days until they turned 18. That, somehow, is socially acceptable? Ewww.

Yet another reason why I find the automatic association of homosexuality and pedophilia equally angering. And to see that the "Pope" is so bigoted and narrow minded that he cannot see the difference? As I see it, it's one evidence of many that the Vatican is the last group that should be able to claim that they represent God.

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Old 08-30-2005, 07:36 AM   #44
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Originally posted by melon
And, yet, we have people out there who had been salivating over the Olsen twins, counting down the days until they turned 18. That, somehow, is socially acceptable? Ewww.
.

Yeah, I think the whole "Let's link homosexuality and pedophilia" thing is utterly stupid, too. Illogical and lame and pathetic and...yeah. Just stupid.

Angela
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Old 08-30-2005, 07:52 AM   #45
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^ it goes along with "sodomy is an abomination!"

but two chicks is pretty hot ...
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