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Old 08-29-2005, 12:45 PM   #16
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


The Catholic church has also discriminated against women for years, people didn't leave in droves over that. So am I implicitly supporting sexism and betraying my womanhood by attending Mass and/or giving money?
Yes. Sorry, but that's how I see it.
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Old 08-29-2005, 12:46 PM   #17
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


I'm not disagreeing with that. Maybe there is hope that one day the Church will change. I haven't given up on that hope yet, obviously
Why wait for them to change?
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Old 08-29-2005, 12:48 PM   #18
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Originally posted by melon


Likewise, I don't mean to be harsh with you either.
Thank you, as you must know by now I think you're pretty awesome

I truly am sorry if anything I have said upsets you. We don't disagree on any of this really, I just hope we can both have our opinions and leave it at that. I support and respect your feelings, I guess I can never say that enough.
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Old 08-29-2005, 12:48 PM   #19
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Originally posted by Irvine511

but don't you see? this simple fact negates all his good qualities.

And it's amazing how many gay people -- this one included, until fairly recently -- believe that as well.
there they go again!
Damn Vatican Religeous Hierachy! I'm an ex-Catholic/Christian, but I'm not an Aethist or an Agnostic....[though i almost was at an earlier part in my life]. I heard a blip about this on the run...on my walkman....going from place to place over the weekend

Yeah....it was something to wake-up, and start to learn over time that gayness did NOT sully {because i didn't recieve the most virulent form of that particular bigotry i can't quite totally say negate] a person's other good quailites.

When you breath it [any bigotry] in like air - you might never totally lose it, but you can knock it down to maybe a 10th or less of what you previously had ingrained in you.

I had to lose alot more anti-gay thinking than racism, where my parents [we're white] deflected a good amount of rasict stuff earlier on, so that I absorbed less from the outside.
The sort of reverse was true {back in mid-60's pre-Stonewall} when it can to gay people....it was hardly metioned in our house, so i picked up more of the bigotry from my then growing larger world.....like Junior High School etc.

My best wishes to pax's friend in ?Seminary? that he be able to complete his training......
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Old 08-29-2005, 12:52 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
I truly am sorry if anything I have said upsets you. We don't disagree on any of this really, I just hope we can both have our opinions and leave it at that. I support and respect your feelings, I guess I can never say that enough.
Oh you haven't upset me at all, and I haven't seen any of this as "personal." Likewise, I hope you realize that I have seen this as merely having been a discussion of "issues."

I reserve my true anger to the Vatican, and, really, no one else.

Melon
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Old 08-29-2005, 12:59 PM   #21
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Originally posted by melon

Likewise, I hope you realize that I have seen this as merely having been a discussion of "issues."

I reserve my true anger to the Vatican, and, really, no one else.
Well thanks for saying that and I appreciate that you did. I do believe that is what your true anger is reserved for, as is mine. But honestly now it is starting to get to me personally. I don't ask anyone else in here to answer for their religious/atheist/whatever beliefs and observances, so I don't wish to answer for mine anymore. It really can't be some sort of abstract discussion for me, not now.

Maybe other people feel the same way and are afraid to say so, maybe not. If I had done what I usually do and not ventured, I wouldn't be in this situation now.

sorry irvine, I didn't mean to mess up your thread
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Old 08-29-2005, 01:01 PM   #22
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Uh, I don't like this news at all, but I have to say I'm not surprised. The crackdown on gays has been going on for some time, it's nothing new. Really, I've been expecting this. I don't like it.
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Old 08-29-2005, 01:02 PM   #23
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I'm glad that you [melon] and Mrs Springsteen are not going to be tearing each other up......as I can feel for both of your positions.

ANd i'd hate to see people who's worldviews tend to be sympatico with mine start verbally going on sniping-fests.
I may not come around here as often as i did about 16 months ago or so, but i've enjoyed your views and how you both express them.
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Old 08-29-2005, 03:06 PM   #24
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Obviously they're completely wrong if they go through with this. Banning gay priests would be stupid. Isn't it the "action" that's bad, and not the homosexual orientation itself?

Anyway, it is just a possibility as of now. And, considering its extremely controversial (and blatantly misguided) nature, I simply don't see the Vatican going through with it.

At least, I'd hope they wouldn't go through with it.
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Old 08-29-2005, 03:12 PM   #25
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I have a question that's a bit off topic, but it does relate to my feelings for the issue. My question is a Catholic friend once mentioned that her family was told how much money they were expected to give to the Church in offerings and they were chastised if the amount they gave wasn't considered enough. Is this a common practice, or was it just some renagade parish?
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Old 08-29-2005, 03:17 PM   #26
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Hmm. Well, considering I'm not experienced enough to know anything about money I'm not completely sure about the issue, but I believe it's recommended that you give a certain amount of your income to the Church.

Though, I can't imagine that you would be chastised if you didn't give the recommended amount. What do you mean when you say they were "chastised," anyway? Did they get nasty phone calls from their parish or what?
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Old 08-29-2005, 03:17 PM   #27
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I've never experienced that in a Catholic Church. There isn't a set amount for almsgiving like in Islam, for example.
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Old 08-29-2005, 03:29 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by XHendrix24

Though, I can't imagine that you would be chastised if you didn't give the recommended amount. What do you mean when you say they were "chastised," anyway? Did they get nasty phone calls from their parish or what?

They got a letter I believe. Telling them they weren't pulling their weight. It's a heavily Catholic area...and my friend had converted...she was not amused by that letter at all.

Which brings up what I was thinking about this issue. If I was a practising Catholic (granted, I'm not even a Christian) and wanted to stay in the church (and say, had the idea that you can't change what you aren't a part of), but also to voice my displeasure -- I would terminate all financial contributions to the church. Instead I'd put a little note in the offering telling them why.

I'm not telling anyone they should do that, but I sure would.
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Old 08-29-2005, 03:34 PM   #29
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I think some people (at least ones I know) continue to give money because it goes to Catholic charities they support and hold dear to their hearts. So it's a bit of a double edged sword for them - like one said to me, you don't cut your nose off to spite your face.
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Old 08-29-2005, 03:36 PM   #30
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I'm usually very wary of posting opinions on anything to do with religion (not faith, that's different), as it's such an emotive subject. However as a former Catholic, I am dismayed tho not entirely surprised by this news.

I wonder perhaps if it has anything to do with those fairly recent scandals, involving priests who preyed sexually on young boys? I can't help but fear that the church will attempt to lay the blame on homsexual priests, then use that as an excuse to deliver this rather heavy handed swipe at them.

That's purely supposition of course and rather than an accusation, it's more of a concern that I have.

For the record - I certainly don't hate the Catholic church, nor the people who worship therein. My problem is with its hierarchy, more than anything else. My parents are still regular attendees and it broke my Mother's heart especially, when I told her I was no longer interested in being a part of it. I simply could not agree with much of what they were saying and to be honest, I felt entirely disconnected from my former religion.

I think that the church has concentrated too much on what is past, as opposed to what is needed to remain alive and vibrant in the 21st century. Who am I to argue with doctrine I suppose you may ask? But if not me, or you, then who? I firmly believe that while people should want to remain part of their religion, that should not exclude questioning its integrity or its intent. This surely is one of those times when those within the church who disagree, should voice their opinions loudly to whomever will listen?

Gay priests/women priests/married priests/AIDS and contraception - these are the stumbling blocks that have already caused many such as myself to walk away from what at times, can seem like a very uncaring and stubborn religion.

Of course these issues are not exclusive to Catholicism I'm sure, but I can't speak of other religions I have little or no knowledge of.

I hope I haven't offended anyone.
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