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Old 08-03-2003, 06:23 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep

The statement you made and I added to should not offend anyone who attends church. Unless there belief is not sound.
Then our remarks really are not the issue.
So now you have made the judgment about me that "my beliefs are not sound" because I took offense at something you said?

Sorry, but the state of my beliefs is my business (and not discernable by strangers on a message board, or frankly any of their business), and God's.

I'm sorry I got involved in this thread. Just something to think about-maybe some people questioning the judgmental nature of the Catholic church could be guilty of the same sweeping generalizations and unfair judgments of people.
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Old 08-03-2003, 06:50 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


So now you have made the judgment about me that "my beliefs are not sound" because I took offense at something you said?

Sorry, but the state of my beliefs is my business (and not discernable by strangers on a message board, or frankly any of their business), and God's.

I'm sorry I got involved in this thread. Just something to think about-maybe some people questioning the judgmental nature of the Catholic church could be guilty of the same sweeping generalizations and unfair judgments of people.
I apologise for offending you.


Quote:
And I want to follow God, and I have no intention of "getting the Hell out of church".Sorry, I don't mean to cause any problems here, but that offends me. And btw, I for one never go around w/ the attitude that I am on the one true path and everyone else is damned or whatever....that's not what my relationship w/ God has taught me.
I did not see this before because your response quoted 80s and not me.

When I was a regular church attendee remarks like I made never affected me. If I had seen read what you posted before I would have offered my sincerest apolgy then and posted differently.
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Old 08-03-2003, 09:25 PM   #63
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This is, strangely enough, the kind of thing that makes me *not* want to quit the Catholic church. If I can stay in and bring some of my attitudes with me, to be open to gays, maybe I can make some sort of impact on at least the people in my parish. American Catholics have been known to be a bit of a pain to the Vatican. That's sure as hell not going to stop--uh, no pun intended. It will be interesting to see what happens when we get a new pope.
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Old 08-03-2003, 09:42 PM   #64
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i agree 100% with you verte. not to say it isn't challenging as of late.
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Old 08-03-2003, 09:59 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by Screaming Flower
i agree 100% with you verte. not to say it isn't challenging as of late.
Oh, you're not kidding. This can be really frustrating. But it's worth trying. I think if those of us who want to have openness about gays in the church leave it'll *never* happen. It will only happen if we stay.
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Old 08-03-2003, 11:27 PM   #66
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Quote:
originally posted by Verte76

It will be interesting to see what happens when we get a new pope
That's something I wonder about too, but they say the next pope may not come from Europe or North America - but either Africa, South Asia, or South America, the latter being the most likely. And the problem is, Catholics in that part of the world have different concerns, different issues, and different beliefs from the Catholic Church of Europe and America. From what I understand, they are very conservative, traditionalist Catholics.

I doubt very much gay rights is a serious issue in those parts of the world and they probably share the same views with the Vatican on this issue. and if I'm wrong, please, feel free to correct me

So, if the next pope is from the Third World, he is likely to be out of touch of the needs, views, etc. of the West, and that would obviously lead to more disillusionment and frustration with the Western Catholics.

I wonder if this would happen, would the Roman church split again like it did in the middle ages because of conflicting views and rivalry between the Western and Eastern church? And lead to two more major branches in Christianity? Oh, boy. Such is the difficulties of trying to maintain a universal church.

But I agree with what the last posters are saying: I think if we choose to stay with the Catholic church, the church would be inspired,or forced, to change.

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Old 08-03-2003, 11:35 PM   #67
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Actually, I've heard the next pope will most likely be Italian, just like most of the popes. In fact, before JPII, the last non-Italian pope was in the 1670s, if I remember correctly.

JPII, however, has appointed nearly all the eligible-voting cardinals, so it is highly likely that the next pope will be as conservative or more conservative than him (although I don't know how the latter is even possible ). From what else I've been told, they want a fairly ineffectual pope who doesn't insist on centralized control like JPII and also someone who won't reign for 20 years. In other words, this is a lot like the election of John XXIII, who, although did serve a very short term, left a large splash, which was completely unexpected.

I guess we'll see what happens.

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Old 08-04-2003, 08:44 AM   #68
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sorry if this post is disjointed

I seem to find that if people know you go to church, they automatically assume you follow that church's laws 100% and then some. They also don't consider the point of you having your own personal relationship w/ God, and church is way to express that, and to do some good in the world. I agree with Mrs. Springsteen & verte & screaming: the change that we need to see is going to take the people, the churchgoers, and happen from the inside and build up, through the priests and the bishops..

I think it does say a lot that non-believers or non-church-goers don't realize that having a faith is more than having a church, it's about the personal relationship with God. Maybe b/c a personal realtionship isn't really encouraged in the church (I'm speaking Catholic, which is what I grew up with). Not to say it's discouraged, but never once in my CCD classes was I taught about me and God, or how I can live my life as He wants.. the classes were basically history lessons. Mass was ritualistic and automatic. Maybe it was just my parish, but faith doesn't seem to be brought down for the individual. I don't know where I'd be spiritually if I hadn't explored other Christian religions/churches and discovered the beauty and the love in worshipping God and how lucky I was to be able to have a personal relationship with Him. But when the Church is so messed up, it gives us all a bad name, and I've had people ask me, how can I stay with a Chuch when I don't agree with some of the things they teach (I equate this to living in the US when I don't agree w/ the president) but, it's a frequent question I get.

Oh, to relate back to the topic I still say that no matter what, marriage ain't no one else's business. If the church doesn't agree, fine. It's not up to them to agree. And due to separation of church & state, it's not up to the government to pass moral indictments onto people like this.

This all really gets me angry when I think of the post I read recently in FYM about Bush wanting to/passing some law that is going to distribute propoganda & make it financially attractive so women who are living in poverty will marry the man they are with. I guess as long as it's a man and a woman he doesn't care that the marriage could be abusive and void of love. I guess it's okay to raise children in this sort of atmosphere (at least the parents will receive enough money from the govt for their drugs). If marriage is viewed as such a holy sacrament, then where is the Church in this situation?? Why aren't we helping the women and men get on their own two feet rather than slapping a husband or wife (respectively!!) on them and compounding the problem? Sooooo messed up!!



*edited cuz I can't spell
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Old 08-04-2003, 10:25 AM   #69
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oliveu2cm: for the offtopic part

I also agree on the second part, a church can do in that issue what they think is right, but the government has to ensure that their church-laws are just for their members and don't turn into public laws.
Our society has enough real problems (like violence), we don't have to create even more problems by creating unnecessary laws to ensure that everyone has to have the same understanding of morale like our leaders.

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Old 08-05-2003, 11:41 PM   #70
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olive-- I actually not only went to CCD classes but also a Catholic all-girls high school, where one of the most important things I learned is that God has given us the choice of free will. We get to make our own decisions about morality and spirituality. CCD is just a way to teach kids about the religion. When you get older, you learn about the faith, whether it be in a religious setting or going out on your own to different churches.

as for the separation of church and state, remember that most countries are not like us. most countries have a state religion. which means if the catholic church will not recognize a catholic union between a gay couple, neither will the country. I believe Islam also holds this belief. And as seen with the recent appointment of a gay bishop in an Espiscopalian church, even other Christians agree with the Catholic church to some extent. although that doesn't make it right.

Ironically, most states in this country don't recognize a union between gays and lesbians anyway.
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Old 08-08-2003, 11:16 AM   #71
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Mrs. Springsteen et al.,

It never occurred to me that what the church needs is for the more liberal members such as myself to stay rather than go. I guess when a woman in Oklahoma thinks about changing what's going on at the Vatican in Italy, it seems hopeless. Thanks for providing another perspective.
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