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Old 07-31-2003, 04:30 PM   #16
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Dinosaurs roam the earth...
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Old 07-31-2003, 05:45 PM   #17
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Originally posted by Klaus
since i din't search the bible yet for homosexuality, any hints in which books the bible writes about homosexuality?
Leviticus 18:22
"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Leviticus 20:13
"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them will have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Romans 1:26-32

"Because of this (people turning away from God), God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. The have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed, and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."
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Old 07-31-2003, 06:02 PM   #18
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Don't even start, DaveC. I suggest you do a thorough search of my past posts in this forum regarding this subject.

FYI, "homosexuality" didn't exist until 1874. Any mention of it before then is a different and mistranslated concept, mainly of pagan temple orgies, which were not homosexual, but bisexual. In other words, the idolatry is what really freaked them out, not the sex.

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Old 07-31-2003, 06:08 PM   #19
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Originally posted by DaveC


Leviticus 18:22
"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
How funny. "Abomination" is now "detestable." But either way, it is incorrect. The Hebrew word, "toe'vah," refers to ritual condemnation, in the same vein as prohibitions against eating shellfish and pork. Secondly, the word for man in Hebrew is "ish," and the ritual condemnation is not against lying with another "ish," but a "zakar." That "zakar" is probably a temple prostitute, and, when thrown in with the ritual "toe'vah," it makes more logical sense.

Quote:
Leviticus 20:13
"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them will have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Again, "ish," "zakar," and "toe'vah."

Romans 1:26-32

"Because of this (people turning away from God), God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. The have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed, and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."
"Unnatural" is "para physin." St. Paul calls God "para physin" at one point. Secondly, you should never take your moral pronouncements from the beginning of Pauline epistles. St. Paul used his epistles to "trick" people into believing what he believed; the beginnings are purposely vague to appeal to their moral sensibilities and the end ultimately condemns their morality and instructs them to change to his.

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Old 07-31-2003, 06:12 PM   #20
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I should also mention that the Catholic Church doesn't even condemn homosexuality on the basis of the Bible, but of "natural law" arguments fostered by St. Augustine and his later successors, such as St. Thomas Aquinas. I won't even begin to tell you how mentally fucked up these people were.

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Old 07-31-2003, 06:16 PM   #21
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Dave since we're going to quote Leviticus can you help me out with a few of these passages as well. I'll just paraphrase. I'd appreciate your help.

Lev.15:19-24 says I am to have no contact with a woman while she is in her menstrual cycle, for she is unclean for seven days and on the eighth day she should offer a sacrifice to be made clean again. Does this mean I should ignore my wife during her period?

Lev. 11:10 says I shouldn't eat shellfish for it's an abomination. Should I give up all shellfish, and should I also protest all Red Lobsters?

Lev. 19:27 speaks of men not getting the hair around their temples trimmed or marring the corners of your beard. Now I have sideburns but no beard, will I still go to hell?

I can go on if you'd like. I'm sorry but the Bible especially Leviticus is full of laws that don't make sence today. Now are these man's laws or God's laws? I have a hard time believing God would create such laws. I have hard time believing God would judge someone who's doing nothing harmful to anyone except loving another person.

But I do remember 2 laws that do make sence today. Love thy neighbor as thyself and judge not lest he be judged.
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Old 07-31-2003, 06:23 PM   #22
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My Question is: What does religion have to do with who you fall in love with?

To say that whoever doesn't conform to the standards of marriage and blessed union as established by the Catholic church will end up in an eternal hell is Asinine, Immoral , Cruel and Stupid.


And this from a religion that professes forgiveness and tolerance..

what tolerance?!

I'm extremely pissed off about this..i have a daughter, what happens when she reaches womanhood, and it turns out she's gay?

Does she bury her head in the ground?

*grrr*
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Old 07-31-2003, 06:24 PM   #23
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Ah, don't forget, Christianity has an excuse for everything. Conservative Protestantism makes an arbitary distinction between ritual Mosaic Law and the rest of it. Needless to say, St. Paul and his Church of Antioch was completely against it.

Regardless, prohibitions of homosexuality are under the ritual "toe'vah" restrictions, and mainline Judaism agrees with this. In fact, some have gone as far as to say that the Mosaic Law only refers to Jews. It was never intended to refer to Gentiles.

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Old 07-31-2003, 07:32 PM   #24
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I don't necessarily agree with the church on some issues but as a Catholic [ok, I'm biased] I at least appreciate that the pope's edicts, such as this one, are based on historical church teachings. You may not agree with them, but at least they stick to their beliefs and convictions. the same can't be said of many politicians.

melon, since I know you know so much about this topic, i wonder if you can answer this. The church does not condone someone for being gay -- even priests can be gay. the church condones homosexual acts, partially because it is a sexual act outside of the sacrament of marriage. Its the same as condoning heterosexual sex outside of marriage. so take it a step further: why does the church specifically say gays and lesbians can't actually marry?

As for condoms, the church is rightfully against any form of birth control -- pills, condoms, abortions -- because sex is supposed to specifically be used for procreation, as stated in the bible. accd to the church, to stop the spread of AIDS don't have sex. In a day and age when there are so many people who disrespect human life, its good to see that the Catholic Church still supports the creation of life. do I practice what they preach? um...not entirely. but there is a difference between most priests and me. that's why I didn't go to the nunery.
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Old 07-31-2003, 07:33 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
As for condoms, the church is rightfully against any form of birth control -- pills, condoms, abortions -- because sex is supposed to specifically be used for procreation, as stated in the bible.
This is news to me. Do you have a verse?
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Old 07-31-2003, 07:49 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
melon, since I know you know so much about this topic, i wonder if you can answer this. The church does not condone someone for being gay -- even priests can be gay. the church condones homosexual acts, partially because it is a sexual act outside of the sacrament of marriage. Its the same as condoning heterosexual sex outside of marriage. so take it a step further: why does the church specifically say gays and lesbians can't actually marry?
You know what? Just because they have believed things since the dawn of time, it doesn't mean that it is right. You know, do you agree with the Church's official teachings on women? Women are to, first and foremost, be mothers and have children. If you don't do that, then you're a bad woman. So why haven't you gone out, gotten married, and had children yet? And why have you even *considered* having a career over these? After all, the only functional purpose for women is to create children. Why on Earth would they exist otherwise?

Of course, this is a vast improvement over medieval theology on women, which believed that women were pure evil. Yes, if I remember correctly, around A.D. 1000, Catholic "natural law" philosophers went as far as to believe that "original sin" was the result of being born through a "dirty" woman and that all fetuses were inherently male. Those who are female were turned female by Satan. So why don't we believe this anymore? Because it's preposterous! But it is *precisely* from this era where the Catholic Church gets its repugnant philosophy on homosexuals from.

It is easy to sit on one's pulpit and point fingers at homosexuals...and then go home to your opposite-sex mate and demand affection, as if they never existed. For homosexuals, they can't escape themselves. What religion insists upon is that homosexuals are a mistake; that, for whatever reason, they were created with the purpose of suffering. Well, you know what? They're wrong. Just as the Catholic Church has been wrong countless times over the past 2000 years and is always 500 years too late on apologizing. Science has *repeatedly* laughed at the face of religious philosophy on this subject, and, still, people insist on believing it.

It's sorry to say, but I've seen this day coming for years. If Roman Catholic apparitions have been any guide, this is the beginning of something terrible...and many of you are going to be on the incorrect side. The Pharisees that populated Jesus' time have returned.

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Old 07-31-2003, 07:55 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Lev.15:19-24 says I am to have no contact with a woman while she is in her menstrual cycle, for she is unclean for seven days and on the eighth day she should offer a sacrifice to be made clean again. Does this mean I should ignore my wife during her period?

Lev. 11:10 says I shouldn't eat shellfish for it's an abomination. Should I give up all shellfish, and should I also protest all Red Lobsters?

Lev. 19:27 speaks of men not getting the hair around their temples trimmed or marring the corners of your beard. Now I have sideburns but no beard, will I still go to hell?
...

But I do remember 2 laws that do make sence today. Love thy neighbor as thyself and judge not lest he be judged.
You are a Supastar.

Go melon.
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Old 07-31-2003, 10:59 PM   #28
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Originally posted by melon
Don't even start, DaveC. I suggest you do a thorough search of my past posts in this forum regarding this subject.
You're jumping the gun, melon. I assume that you are suggesting that I am a Christian and that I intend to go against you. Totally the opposite. I am not a Christian (although I was at one point) and I totally support the right of homosexuals to get married.

Quote:
Originally posted by melon
How funny. "Abomination" is now "detestable." But either way, it is incorrect. The Hebrew word, "toe'vah," refers to ritual condemnation, in the same vein as prohibitions against eating shellfish and pork. Secondly, the word for man in Hebrew is "ish," and the ritual condemnation is not against lying with another "ish," but a "zakar." That "zakar" is probably a temple prostitute, and, when thrown in with the ritual "toe'vah," it makes more logical sense.
"Abomination" has become "detestable" because I was using the New International Version. And I completely agree with you. No work, literary or otherwise, can maintain the exact same meanings over 5,000 years of rewriting after rewriting, and also after countless language translations. Meanings are bound to be messed up.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Dave since we're going to quote Leviticus can you help me out with a few of these passages as well. I'll just paraphrase. I'd appreciate your help. [/B]
I'll help as much as I can, cause I think I'm fairly well-versed on Theology, but I'm no scholar.

Quote:
Lev.15:19-24 says I am to have no contact with a woman while she is in her menstrual cycle, for she is unclean for seven days and on the eighth day she should offer a sacrifice to be made clean again. Does this mean I should ignore my wife during her period?
Taken literally, yes. Taken figuratively, it means that you really shouldn't have sex with her, because it can get a bit messy, and that ritually, she's in her "cleansing period" (pun intended) and that her body is "cleaning itself". I personally think this is a crock.

Quote:
Lev. 11:10 says I shouldn't eat shellfish for it's an abomination. Should I give up all shellfish, and should I also protest all Red Lobsters?
Taken literally, yes. Another crock. Heck, Shellfish are so good, I don't care if I go to Hell for eating them...mmm...lobster. I bet they have wicked luaus and clambakes down in Hell.

Quote:
Lev. 19:27 speaks of men not getting the hair around their temples trimmed or marring the corners of your beard. Now I have sideburns but no beard, will I still go to hell?
If so, I'm comin' down with ya.

Quote:
I can go on if you'd like. I'm sorry but the Bible especially Leviticus is full of laws that don't make sence today. Now are these man's laws or God's laws? I have a hard time believing God would create such laws. I have hard time believing God would judge someone who's doing nothing harmful to anyone except loving another person.
They are, if the Bible is to be believed, totally God's laws, 100%. Although why God would concern himself with beards and clams is beyond me. I personally think that those laws are made up by humans to keep the people in line and make them concern themselves with petty things so that they don't notice the big shit going down around them. Kinda like today!

Quote:
But I do remember 2 laws that do make sence today. Love thy neighbor as thyself and judge not lest he be judged.
If only they were followed.

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Old 07-31-2003, 11:00 PM   #29
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Originally posted by MissVelvetDress_75
and i wonder why i am thinking about leaving the Catholic church.
You're not the only one. Reading about the pope's edict this morning, I pretty much decided that this is the last straw. I've had it with the Catholic Church. Even my friend who is devoutly Catholic was outraged (she has two gay siblings).

And yes, go melon, although I do like a lot of the things Augustine wrote.
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Old 08-01-2003, 12:02 AM   #30
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Hey, since we seem to have gotten on to the subject of Old Testament law, I found some interesting material that I will start a new thread on.
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