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Old 04-08-2006, 02:25 AM   #46
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Throughout the movie, I kept thinking of Bono's words, "Fuck the revolution." Here's my take on the movie: V was brutally tortured; the government - much like Frankenstein - created a monster; like Frankenstein's monster, V sought revenge; V - like Frankenstein's monster, is smart; unlike Frankenstein's monster, V SIMPLY stoops to the level of the fascist, murdering government (I realize Frankenstein's monster also seeks revenge and does kill innocent people, but that story is a bit more complicated, hence the word "simply" being of great importance; V, who supposedly is all about liberating people never does anything that liberates anyone - Ev isn't liberated by fear, she's bound to numbness, hatred, and confusion; and, when the people come together at the end of the movie they aren't liberated as they're all hiding behind white masks. Is the message that you must hide behind a mask in order to be free? Shall we all be "white" then?
V is hardly a political hero. He creates chaos to satisfy his revenge and hate.
Gandhi is a hero. Stalin was not. Martin Luther King Jr was a hero. Che was not (although his image now represents something completely different than who he actually was).
In order to break free of the system, we must free ourselves from the mental chains. Because of social hegemony we think we all have to act out certain prescribed roles. As Bob Marley sang, we must free ourselves from this form of slavery. Killing oppressors only enslaves one to the chains of murder and hate.
Many people say Jesus changed and saved the world, and yet he never lifted a sword, even though many wanted him to.
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Old 04-08-2006, 04:07 AM   #47
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Quote:
when the people come together at the end of the movie they aren't liberated as they're all hiding behind white masks. Is the message that you must hide behind a mask in order to be free? Shall we all be "white" then?
see... i am not sure if you left the movie earlier
but they where discarting the masks in the end! and i think that is an important deatil which puts a different spin on the popular criticism of that movie.
I think this was done deliberately. 1st they are not free at all, they where hiding behind another mask, probably for security. However, that mask, being a symbol for the resistance (all movements have symbols) gives them the inital kick in the behind and strength to finally DO something. Even if it just walking down the street together. The mask could have been any color. It is the meaning of the mask , not the mask itself. It is the symbol that the opressive regime feared - so what do you do to really tell them that you support the "leader"? YOu use his symbol

Furthermore i it important to notice how V never claimed to be the leader (and probably never would have been). He followed his own venegance and apart from killing people, destroying the system was an important part of this. He merely shook up the to pick up their own revolution - he did not found/ lead it - he leyd the 1st stepstone. Converting Evey was in my opinion another selfish act. He fell in love with her and wanted to bind her to himself. Only by understanding his way, she would stay. (though i admit this whole part can be seen completely different, but this is how i understood it -> fits better into his charcter )

And to come to a final conclusion we would need the after story. WHo says it was effectfull at all? what it the system was not soley based on 2 people, but quickly re-build and Evey hunted down, while some inner workings gradually bring about the change? Change from actually by someone else with other ideas/ approaches?

Generally I find a bit much to ask of a mere blockbuster movie to live up to MLK, Ghandi or some big philosophies.
It is still entertainment and ok, it does have some supposedly deep stuff in it, but no one can possibly expect it to be new and relevant. After all it is a story with a limited elaborated setting (how exactly did the governemnt come into power? who is to blame? people for letting and not reacting in time... like the old Nazi discussion)

I agree about Evey, but it this a popular conception about human psychologie in these kind of movies/ comics. That's fine.. it is genre

Anyways, I need to get comic to get the whole picture I think. I am pretty sure that movie and comic combined while shed a more accurate light in V. Even though Moore said he does not want to be asociated with teh mobie, many avid comic lovers have approved of teh move and are fine with the different portrail of V and Evey (the transition from paper to screen is always bound to result in changes). Moore , even though the creator, is generally a bit itchy with his creations.
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Old 04-08-2006, 06:48 AM   #48
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Insightful movie of things possibly to come. But I don't understand the principles of this 'Anarchist' movement (that V supposedly represents). But by taking action against the oppressing facists, how does society function under anarchaic rule? (rule being possibly ironic to the meaning of ararchy) Explain someone please.
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Old 04-08-2006, 12:58 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by a-mole

see... i am not sure if you left the movie earlier
but they where discarding the masks in the end! and i think that is an important detail which puts a different spin on the popular criticism of that movie.
I think this was done deliberately. 1st they are not free at all, they where hiding behind another mask, probably for security. However, that mask, being a symbol for the resistance (all movements have symbols) gives them the initial kick in the behind and strength to finally DO something. Even if it just walking down the street together. The mask could have been any color. It is the meaning of the mask , not the mask itself. It is the symbol that the opressive regime feared - so what do you do to really tell them that you support the "leader"? YOu use his symbol

Furthermore i it important to notice how V never claimed to be the leader (and probably never would have been). He followed his own venegance and apart from killing people, destroying the system was an important part of this. He merely shook up the to pick up their own revolution - he did not found/ lead it - he leyd the 1st stepstone. Converting Evey was in my opinion another selfish act. He fell in love with her and wanted to bind her to himself. Only by understanding his way, she would stay. (though i admit this whole part can be seen completely different, but this is how i understood it -> fits better into his charcter )

And to come to a final conclusion we would need the after story. WHo says it was effectfull at all? what it the system was not soley based on 2 people, but quickly re-build and Evey hunted down, while some inner workings gradually bring about the change? Change from actually by someone else with other ideas/ approaches?

Generally I find a bit much to ask of a mere blockbuster movie to live up to MLK, Ghandi or some big philosophies.
It is still entertainment and ok, it does have some supposedly deep stuff in it, but no one can possibly expect it to be new and relevant. After all it is a story with a limited elaborated setting (how exactly did the governemnt come into power? who is to blame? people for letting and not reacting in time... like the old Nazi discussion)

I agree about Evey, but it this a popular conception about human psychologie in these kind of movies/ comics. That's fine.. it is genre

Anyways, I need to get comic to get the whole picture I think. I am pretty sure that movie and comic combined while shed a more accurate light in V. Even though Moore said he does not want to be asociated with teh mobie, many avid comic lovers have approved of teh move and are fine with the different portrail of V and Evey (the transition from paper to screen is always bound to result in changes). Moore , even though the creator, is generally a bit itchy with his creations.
I stayed to watch the whole movie. The only movie I stopped watching was Freddie Got Fingered (but I rented that, so I still have yet to walk out on a movie).
Ok, so they take their masks off at the end. This reminds me of the early feminist movement when lesbians were not welcome and considered the "lavender menace." The message is then, we need to all be the same and then once we're free you can be whatever. However, unless people demand to be who they are from the get go, people will never be free.
I agree that to ask a blockbuster movie to live up to a Gandhi, MLK Jr, or Jesus is a bit much. Nevertheless, i think what is partly so irritating about this movie is, it thinks it somehow can. This movie is so damn pretentious.
V may never have asked to be the leader, but by becoming the symbol for the resistance, became one.
Let's take a look at Jesus. Many (the zealots) wanted Jesus to advocate violence against the oppressive Roman empire; others, (pharisees) wanted Jesus to advocate following the law; and, others (Essenes) wanted to Jesus to only wander around preaching about the soul. Jesus demanded his followers civilly disobey.
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Old 04-08-2006, 04:42 PM   #50
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true
but i still do not see why fictional charcters should live up to or copy real life figures

V may have become a leader when turning into th symbol.. but that does not force im to become ethical or so
And furthermore am I convinced that in the case of regims like depicted (or the Nazis) violence is not the worst thing. MLK or Ghandi could not have reached s*** in NS Germany.. trust me.

I think the moviemakers and comic writer have the same feeling and thus depict their view on how it could/ should be handled. That it is not in comliance with other popular philosophies is on another sheet of paper

I actually also think that you interpretation about being hiding andbeing free contradicts the movie. I find the ending open enough to have these thoughts very well too. We do not know how it continues and whether it was really the solution. After all, it leaves us where it starts to show. I could not fully agree with Evey in the end (her enthusiasm for continuing V's work), but i do not think the film necessarily wanst you too. I think it's point is rather the possible danger of a future big bro totalitarian society and how it can only be and end ugly. There will be no shining hero, with everyone comming out clean. V was a monster, (de)formed by the very same system he tried to destroy... I have no idea how GHandi and MLK even come into discussion there. Apart from wanting to get rid of opression, I cnnot see parallels. Historicly I can only see paralells to Nazi Germany and WWII. An ugly and gruesom war was necessary to free my country... The fiction V for Vendetta is way milder and nicer than this reality (hey, 2 bad guys, some foolish guardsmen and 2 buildings... !
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Old 04-08-2006, 05:28 PM   #51
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I prefer the ZZW and ZOB to the story of Jesus.
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Old 04-08-2006, 05:49 PM   #52
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the what?
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Old 04-08-2006, 05:55 PM   #53
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The Jewish resistance groups that operated in the Warsaw Ghetto during WW2, they did not represent the behaviour that Ghandi advocated after the fact
Quote:
When his biographer, Louis Fischer, asked him in June 1946 if, in light of the Holocaust, he regretted the words he had addressed to Germany's Jews, Gandhi said: "Hitler killed five million [sic] Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs."

Fischer asked: "You mean that the Jews should have committed collective suicide?" Gandhi answered: "Yes, that would have been heroism."
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Old 04-08-2006, 06:42 PM   #54
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oh i do not agree with Ghandi there at all

generally i find that i can afford only so much toleranance and peace for oether's who think they can just walk all over me and not give a damn.
I really cannot comply with the "other cheek" philosophy. If it is about my freedom i am pretty archaic ( i never purposely attack, but hell breaks lose if I GET attacked)
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Old 04-08-2006, 07:16 PM   #55
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But then, the British in India never stooped to the ghastly, :all-out war" tactics of the world's most oppressive regimes. it was unremittingly awful but never a case of "Armenians (ermeni) are like weeds. Every so often they have to be trimmed, otherwise they'd grow too thick and too tall and pollute the landscape." (a popular saying in Ottoman Empire adminstration, according to my grandfather's Sunday School teacher almost 100 yrs ago...he had Turkish friends at the local level who had friends who worked in Sultan Abdul Hamid's Civil Service.) Some historians beleive that if 1915 hadn't happened, the Armenians in Turkey would have been slowly eliminated over the next 20 yrs by the pogroms that had been happening every 3 or 4 yrs from 1896 onwards...mini-massacres that routinely killed 20,000-50,00o people.)

Cruel as it is to say this, the people of India had it good, compared to other oppressors. And yes, I've read the history, extensively. Whatever their Empirical faults, the Brits never attempted all-out genocide. The Indians fared, for example, much better than the Irish (England's first conquest, of nearly 1000 yrs ago, and Ulster the only part of the Empire still remaining in English hands. Some historians beleive that if the iriush had called for anothe rof thier periodic uprsings at the time of the Famine, Queen Victoria would have gone in and wiped the "croppies" out for good. They were looking for an excuse. The rising never happened, though Parnell tried to suggest one.)

I can think of other rough exampkles that might be suggested...the Spanish in the New World (but disease helped a lot there), and the French in Vietnam. But on a whole, the Indians were merely oppressed, not subjected to the national equivalent of a gulag.

Great example, actgually. What would Gandhi have done if the Brits had operated a Soviet-style gulag system in India, in which millions of people disappeared every year? I wonder how much he would have put up with....Satyagraha would have been sorely tested, in today's world.
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Old 04-08-2006, 08:21 PM   #56
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"Turn the other cheek" is a misunderstood concept. Jesus isn't advocating being a wimp; Jesus is advocating civil disobedience. In Rome, if someone slaps you from their right, it's a back-handed slap. A back-handed slap was given from a superior to an inferior. If the inferior then were to turn the other cheek, the superior would either have to slap him with an open palm, and thereby asserting the two individuals were equal, or stop slapping him.
Walking the extra mile and taking off all your clothes were also about shaming others.
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Old 04-08-2006, 08:39 PM   #57
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Civil disobedience and passive resistance achieves no end but ones own death at the hands of an amoral opponent.
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Old 04-09-2006, 01:15 AM   #58
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I'm quiet sure that actually India is free, black people do have civil rights in America, and that Jesus did, in fact, have an enormous effect on the world. But, I do suppose those things are not worth a whole lot. No end, indeed.

Seriously, what was the point of that movie? Obviously, the writers and director made a pointed movie, so what was the point? America's government is far too big brother, almost as bad as the movie's government. So, should Americans blow up the White House or Congress?
You know, if we chop off Bush's head all of his sins will suddenly be erased. Iraq will suddenly become a zone of peace. Africa will be healed. Halliburton will sponateously combust. Of course, we'll have to strangle Cheney too.
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Old 04-09-2006, 03:48 AM   #59
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1st. the comic is by any means not about america
the movie is altered to draw closer parallels to the USA, that is true... Nevertheless, it is still open enough and still set in GB (a bit beyond me me how people keep thinking this is supposed to be america, when clearly location and state of affaires are different. showing parallels to current tactics, scarres and isues is certainly a nice touch and brings it closer to the viewer - but for once the movie world does NOT revolve around teh USA)
however, i find it quite obvious that it aims to depict current state of affairs and it's cure - but rather a dark future vision which at best wants to warn/ shake up people to act before it is too late. And no - acting BEFORE it is too late does then not necessarily mean blowing buildings up. What it means is not said... but if humanity needed a movie to tell them, now that would be sad

2nd: Civil disobiedience is another concept i personally do not agree with
I admire people whoo go through with it, but i would not
so in its consequence it does not matter to me how the concept is correct
(though i agree it is rather clever in the situation of the inferior in ancient rome)
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Old 04-10-2006, 03:17 AM   #60
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I read an interview with the author of the original comic and he seemed to be very angry with the movie. He accused the writers of turning it into a anti-Bush, anti-conservative movie.

I'll try to dig up the article sometime soon.
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