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Old 08-19-2016, 03:48 PM   #496
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Why doesn't she deny it?
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Old 08-19-2016, 03:51 PM   #497
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But I think where iron yuppie has a point is that this forum has been extremely aggressively ridiculing Bernie and his supporters. I wasn't one of them (Bernie bros) so it didn't really affect me, but there were times when it felt like because we had one poster who was just way out there, that nobody was even willing to entertain the notion that there are some serious points that campaign was making. BMP really kind of shat the bed on this to be honest, but the rest of us didn't always have to take the bait either...
But I went back and read the last 3 previous pages, and I didn't see one "mocking" post about Bernie, not one. Sure there have been swipes at those messiah types, but can we not differentiate? i guess I never understood this inability to see that a criticism of the follower doesn't equate to a criticism of the candidate.
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Old 08-19-2016, 04:03 PM   #498
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I think most people who are voting for HC have been more than willing to admit that she has problems here or there, though to be honest I have a couple of times thought the pushback was a bit unwarranted in terms of charges of sexism being brought up immediately. And usually by men, too. But I think where iron yuppie has a point is that this forum has been extremely aggressively ridiculing Bernie and his supporters. I wasn't one of them (Bernie bros) so it didn't really affect me, but there were times when it felt like because we had one poster who was just way out there, that nobody was even willing to entertain the notion that there are some serious points that campaign was making. BMP really kind of shat the bed on this to be honest, but the rest of us didn't always have to take the bait either...
Tough not to take the bait when it's a never ending chum bucket...

But your overall point is dead on. The prime BernieBro was/remains soooooooo unbelievably over the top and just in his own world that it's hard not to respond.

Dude took a mispost by me in another thread that I changed to a period and went on a rant over it.
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Old 08-19-2016, 05:42 PM   #499
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Yeah? Go ahead and give some examples. I'd love to hear them. Because when people like PFan and Vlad have brought up concerns about her foreign policy record, for example, it's immediately crickets. Then there's something about Bernie's tax records, and right on cue, pages of mockery.


To be fair, the mockery isn't so much of Bernie bit of his #Bernieorbust supporters, especially after their DNC histrionics.

My point was that this would be the type of scrutiny Bernie would have been subjected to in the general that he has not yet encountered because the Clinton folks went easy on him and he wins handily in Vermont. I'm sure he can handle it, but there was a concern about his lack of vetting.
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Old 08-19-2016, 05:48 PM   #500
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I didn't read these threads during the primaries, but part of my problem is the hatred spewed by the Bernie-ites towards Hillary. My FB was insane; it was like she was the Anti-Christ or something.


Yes. I felt/saw the hate, and I do think misogyny was a component. I'm very glad it's over. And this wasn't one loud idiot -- this was the several dozen Bernie folks having essentially the same arguments/talking points and getting into the same back-and-forth with the Hillary folk who always took the bait.

It takes everything I have to remain (mostly) apolitical on FB.

That's why I come here.
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Old 08-19-2016, 07:53 PM   #501
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Yeah? Go ahead and give some examples. I'd love to hear them. Because when people like PFan and Vlad have brought up concerns about her foreign policy record, for example, it's immediately crickets. Then there's something about Bernie's tax records, and right on cue, pages of mockery.
Speaking for myself, I fully agree that Hilary's foreign policy history is worthy of discussion. I'm not exactly thrilled that she supported the Iraq War, either, especially knowing what we know now about just how fabricated the reasons for bringing us there were.

However, I also feel that even if Hilary hadn't voted for the Iraq War, there's a chance she'd still get us into some other sort of foreign conflict as president. Just like Obama and his thing with the drone program and the smaller scale battles. Our involvement in foreign conflicts is often very much a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Politicians can stand there and talk all they want about how they'll pull us out of here or send us over there, but it's one thing to say that on the campaign trail, it's another entirely to have to actually wind up making those kinds of tough decisions when in office.

Mind, I think it's very frustrating that Democrats are so afraid of looking "soft on terror/national security" to the point where they support things like the Iraq War years back or other conflicts of that sort, but I think they need to know they have the support of constituents when they stand and refuse to send us into x conflict (or at least, not go until we have all the legit information we absolutely need to make such calls). Maybe if they have that, they'll listen to those people instead of the ones who are all, "Let's just go in and bomb everyone!"

As for other criticisms, well, I also remember cringing during the primaries when Gloria Steinem and Madeleine Albright came out at a rally for Hilary and basically said that women need to stick together and support Hilary. Hilary herself didn't say such things, no (thankfully), but it was kind of an off-putting message to put out in her campaign. Sarah Palin and Carly Fiorina are women, too, after all, and there's no way in hell I'd support them on anything. Hilary's experience and ability to handle the job can speak for itself, so it's best when she just keeps the focus on that.

And I think most here also acknowledged at various points that Clinton goofed up with the e-mail scandal. We may not be making it into the WORST. SCANDAL. EVAR! that the right and others have been trying to turn it into, but still...

So there's a few examples of critique of Clinton that I can give right off the bat.

I can't speak for the others on their thoughts on discussions regarding Bernie, but I've mentioned before that I was cool with him, too. I would've supported him if he won the nomination, no question.

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Originally Posted by martha View Post
I didn't read these threads during the primaries, but part of my problem is the hatred spewed by the Bernie-ites towards Hillary. My FB was insane; it was like she was the Anti-Christ or something.
Same here. I did run into some of that online, too, and that part of it all got very tiring. But that's not Bernie's fault, obviously, that's just a few people being obnoxious online, which...is really nothing new .
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Old 08-19-2016, 08:04 PM   #502
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Ok, but he never really says "I want to close all bases," he is just saying that we should be repaid for supporting other countries militarily. It's a small point, but the way he is framing the question, it leaves it open to negotiating with other countries to find a new way to support them, in a way that is fair to the US. He is not giving the blanket statement that Stein is saying.
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Old 08-19-2016, 08:19 PM   #503
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the vast majority of overseas US military bases are on land that was conquered and/or occupied (the philippines, guantanamo bay, germany, okinawa). the americans didn't set up shop there as a favour to the locals. what exactly about these situations is not "fair to the US"?
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Old 08-19-2016, 08:38 PM   #504
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As one of the articles mentioned, we are paying into NATO (and I suppose that includes military bases) and station in Japan, whereas they are not putting their own resources in for the help we are providing for their defense.
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Old 08-19-2016, 08:50 PM   #505
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As one of the articles mentioned, we are paying into NATO (and I suppose that includes military bases) and station in Japan, whereas they are not putting their own resources in for the help we are providing for their defense.
...

i'm going to assume you're aware of a little incident called world war 2?

japan is legally prohibited by their constitution (which was written by the victors) from having an independent military. so what exactly are they supposed to do? i'm no diplomat, but i don't think forcing your allies to rip up their constitutions for your sole benefit is smart foreign policy.

edit: this line of thinking also drastically and criminally undervalues the enormous support the us military receives from its nato allies, especially in overseas host countries. you and trump really have no idea what you're on about here.
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Old 08-19-2016, 08:52 PM   #506
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Ok, but he never really says "I want to close all bases," he is just saying that we should be repaid for supporting other countries militarily. It's a small point, but the way he is framing the question, it leaves it open to negotiating with other countries to find a new way to support them, in a way that is fair to the US. He is not giving the blanket statement that Stein is saying.

And as most of these articles point out this shows you and Trump don't understand the situation.

Either you believe in having a presence around the world in order to secure ourselves or you don't. It doesn't come down to getting paid(or the lack of understanding of our payment). His stance is juvenile.

You CLAIM to have voted for Sanders who wants to scale back our presence. You now support someone who will do so if they don't stroke his ego. So how is it an issue when Stein says so?

Can you see how you may come off contradictory?


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Old 08-19-2016, 09:02 PM   #507
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As one of the articles mentioned, we are paying into NATO (and I suppose that includes military bases) and station in Japan, whereas they are not putting their own resources in for the help we are providing for their defense.

I'm curious. Were you even aware of this "problem" where the United States supposedly isn't receiving compensation for their defense of other nations? Or did the Donald say it, and now you're just defending it?

It seems to me that people are quick to defend the claims of the talking head. That goes both ways of course, but typically people can get away with ignorance when the talking head they're backing doesn't just make wildly irrational claims such as this one. I don't know how you or anyone else can't see this, or if you just don't want to, but Trump clearly made up this strange claim that somehow Japan or any other country with US military presence is getting some kind of freebie.
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Old 08-19-2016, 09:02 PM   #508
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I can't believe Sting made a comeback.
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Old 08-19-2016, 09:10 PM   #509
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What are everyone else's thoughts on the bases? I'm down with closing all of them and getting out of all foreign war involvement, but that's just me...
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Old 08-19-2016, 09:27 PM   #510
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What are everyone else's thoughts on the bases? I'm down with closing all of them and getting out of all foreign war involvement, but that's just me...

You don't have to necessarily close down bases to not be involved with other countries' wars and affairs.

We live in a globalized world. Including the military reach of other countries, good or bad. I believe in non-interventionist government, whenever possible. But, and here I'll go sounding like I'm copying the talking head that is Gary Johnson, there's a difference between interventionism and being involved on the global stage. If you're not involved globally, you're falling behind in all spheres. Militarily. Influentially. Economically. We must participate, but that's different from going and fucking shit up.
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