US Politics XIV: Vote for Pedro

[anitram]

https://twitter.com/alt_uscis/status/1142068211539750913?s=21

These are human beings, children

Total moral bankruptcy.

 

[Magnus Maximus]

Well this was a read.

FWIW, MM isn’t STING. I can still spot Mr Resolution 1441 a mile away, no matter the subject.

Victor Davis Hansen is absolutely a right wing outrage merchant and doesn’t qualify as a legitimate source.

Other than that, I’ve enjoyed this exchange. Really.

CGSC and the Army War College would disagree. VDH on the western way of war is mandatory reading. You may disagree with his politics; however his historical writings are very well respected.

 

[Magnus Maximus]

Total moral bankruptcy.

Very sad, doesn't this speak to our lack of respect for life at all stages (from conception until natural death).

You know what else is sad, the genocide that is being carried out in NY and all over the US. against minority children.

Senator Rubén Díaz Sr. of the Bronx brought up the figure repeatedly as he urged a group of anti-abortion ministers to spread the word that abortion was nothing less than an attack on minorities.

“They might think that we will take over, and that they’ve got to stop us,” said Mr. Díaz, who also is a minister. “What they did, they are killing black and Hispanic children.”

New York City's abortion rate is 41%

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/nyregion/04abortion.html

Let’s Talk About the Black Abortion Rate
In New York City, thousands more black babies are aborted each year than born alive.


According to a city Health Department report released in May, between 2012 and 2016 black mothers terminated 136,426 pregnancies and gave birth to 118,127 babies. By contrast, births far surpassed abortions among whites, Asians and Hispanics.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/lets-talk-about-the-black-abortion-rate-1531263697


In Georgia:

https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2019/02/48594/

The inconvenient truth of “black genocide” significantly decreased the potential black population of Georgia over the past fifty years. According to recent Centers for Disease Control (CDC) statistics, while African-Americans constitute 32.2 percent of Georgia’s population, 62.4 percent of abortions in Georgia are performed on African-American women. By contrast, whites constitute 60.8 percent of the Georgia population, but only 24.7 percent of abortions were performed on white women. Even pro-abortion groups like the Guttmacher Institute admit that “black women are more than 5 times as likely as white women to have an abortion.”

 

[BEAL]

And right back to women are killing babies.

Here’s an idea, maybe try to improve the lives of minorities and abortions will go down.

Chipping away at their ability to make improvements, such as education funding, the ability to vote to make changes, and on a tougher scale racism that permeates thru the south.

Banning abortion won’t solve anything. It’ll make things worse.

And it has nothing to do with our government abusing children. The same people who claim life is precious

I’d fucking abort a child if i knew this is how they’d be treated after they are born.

No soap or sanitary items. Sleeping on concrete

Being fed FROZEN UNCOOKED FOOD

The GOP is showing they only care about controlling a women’s body, White people, and guns

Not a single fucking statement from a GOP congress member about this human rights abuse

 

[Magnus Maximus]

And right back to women are killing babies.

Here’s an idea, maybe try to improve the lives of minorities and abortions will go down.

Chipping away at their ability to make improvements, such as education funding, the ability to vote to make changes, and on a tougher scale racism that permeates thru the south.

Banning abortion won’t solve anything. It’ll make things worse.

And it has nothing to do with our government abusing children. The same people who claim life is precious

I’d fucking abort a child if i knew this is how they’d be treated after they are born.

No soap or sanitary items. Sleeping on concrete

Being fed FROZEN UNCOOKED FOOD

The GOP is showing they only care about controlling a women’s body, White people, and guns

Not a single fucking statement from a GOP congress member about this human rights abuse

I agree it's a human rights abuse, if this is going on its wrong, very wrong and must be stopped.

I didn't read all of it, was there a statement from a democrat congress member on this? Was the GOP at fault during the Obama years? There were more detentions and deportations under Obama than Trump.

We as a people don't value life, when you don't value life this is what you get.

As for making things better for minorities, I agree. There should be childcare and fully funded pre K so women can work, and support their families. We should increase opportunity in Urban environments so jobs can increase and we won't have a break down of the minority family. I agree on all these things.

But do two wrongs make a right?

Can I murder someone because of my station in life?

Is easy access to abortion the easy way out?

Yeah it's hard, I get it.

You know my wife and I had a child in College, she dropped out and worked 40 hours a week. I stayed in carried a full class load, Completed ROTC, was in the Army Reserve, worked at night waiting tables, Graduated and was commissioned Active Duty. Yeah it sucked and it was hard, but it's doable, very doable.

Did we have everything we wanted, no we were dirt poor, small apartment, beat up cars, but we stuck it out. Now many years later (and 5 kids) we see we were very blessed, we didn't see that at the time.

 

[Irvine511]

Going to “yeah, well what about unborn children” is the right wing equivalent of “that sounds like something Hitler might say.”

Absolutely and totally inappropriate and shows a total lack of ability to make an argument about the thing at hand. And the sanctimonious anecdote about your highly specific situation and the *choice* you and your wife made and now look how amazing you are as something that we should all learn from is unbelievably condescending. And then you wrap it as some kind of racism concern. No.

You don’t get to compare children wrapped in metal blankets in cages being used as a method of terrorizing people in Latin America to what a woman may or may not do with her body. It’s a completely bogus comparison to make (one VDH and every other person in the right wing grievance complex has made, and where does it end, really?) and I won’t engage any further on that.

 

[Magnus Maximus]

Going to “yeah, well what about unborn children” is the right wing equivalent of “that sounds like something Hitler might say.”

Absolutely and totally inappropriate and shows a total lack of ability to make an argument about the thing at hand. And the sanctimonious anecdote about your highly specific situation and the *choice* you and your wife made and now look how amazing you are as something that we should all learn from is unbelievably condescending. And then you wrap it as some kind of racism concern. No.

You don’t get to compare children wrapped in metal blankets in cages being used as a method of terrorizing people in Latin America to what a woman may or may not do with her body. It’s a completely bogus comparison to make (one VDH and every other person in the right wing grievance complex has made, and where does it end, really?) and I won’t engage any further on that.

It speaks of our disregard for life in general, so yes it does have bearing. Yes the comparison is state sponsored genocide of Blacks and Latino's in our country, vs abhorrent treatment of Latin Americans trying to get in the country. Both are a war against minorities, only your liberal sensibilities blind you from it.

My questions are, when and how long has this been going on?

Why are we blaming the GOP, where did they sanction this?

What Democrats have spoke out, and what have they done about it?

If detentions and deportations were larger under Obama did these things occur then as well?

 

[Magnus Maximus]

Just a little bit of research and you will see the same thing was happening under Obama. So instead of blaming the GOP and yelling Trump, Trump. Instead of getting your news from Alt immigration (which has an agenda)


Honestly it looks like ICE is just carrying on Obama era policies. (which are still wrong, 2 wrongs don't make a right)


Take a look what NPR wrote back in June 15 (I know NPR is arch conservative)


The American Immigration Council and the American Civil Liberties Union announced a class-action lawsuit challenging the conditions of detention in Border Patrol facilities in the Tucson, Ariz., region. Scores of detainees report being held in unsanitary and frigid cells while being denied adequate food, water, hygiene, medical attention, or access to legal counsel.

Meanwhile, lawyers at the Los Angeles-based Center for Human Rights and Constitutional Law and Obama administration officials have just a few days left to settle a lawsuit challenging the detention facilities for more than 2,000 women with children, who came here during last summer's border surge. The families are being held in detention centers in Texas and Pennsylvania. A federal judge in Los Angeles issued a preliminary ruling finding that the administration is violating an 18-year-old court settlement, Flores v. Meese. The settlement requires the government to house migrant children in "the least restrictive environment" or release them to relatives


https://www.npr.org/sections/itsall...obama-immigrant-detention-policies-under-fire




https://www.pbs.org/video/frontline-lost-in-detention/

 

[Magnus Maximus]

This is a good one, it shows pictures of an Obama era detention center and a Trump one, looks the same, and looks like some of your ALT-Im pictures


https://qz.com/1291470/photos-immigrant-children-detained-at-the-placement-center-in-2014/

 

[Mrs. Garrison]

imagine being in an angry frenzy for two days just because someone posted a picture of the soviet flag flying in berlin

Imagine having your ass handed to you in a debate and resorting to your typical tantrum tactics until the predictable moderator comes to your rescue yet again

FYM you never change

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Imagine having your ass handed to you in a debate and resorting to your typical tantrum tactics until the predictable moderator comes to your rescue yet again

FYM you never change

[scene not found]

 

[Irvine511]

It speaks of our disregard for life in general, so yes it does have bearing. Yes the comparison is state sponsored genocide of Blacks and Latino's in our country, vs abhorrent treatment of Latin Americans trying to get in the country. Both are a war against minorities, only your liberal sensibilities blind you from it.

The logical contortions and mental gymnastics one would need to write something like this might seem mind blowing, but in fact it’s just a. Radical simplification of complex issues to a bumper sticker “LIFE” that enables you to view elective abortion as genocide while defending the current situation at the border.

You’re just asserting something as if it’s self-evident when it isn’t. It just isn’t.

 

[Irvine511]

Imagine having your ass handed to you in a debate and resorting to your typical tantrum tactics until the predictable moderator comes to your rescue yet again



FYM you never change

Imagine you returning to gloat at anyone in here.

 

[Irvine511]

This is a good one, it shows pictures of an Obama era detention center and a Trump one, looks the same, and looks like some of your ALT-Im pictures


https://qz.com/1291470/photos-immigrant-children-detained-at-the-placement-center-in-2014/

Immigration experts have told us that family separations were relatively rare under Obama and other past administrations. They did not happen at nearly the scale that they did under the Trump administration.

George W. Bush’s Operation Streamline referred for prosecution immigrants who crossed into the country illegally, but made exceptions for adults traveling with children. The Obama administration initially kept families together in detention, but after losing a legal challenge, released families out of detention after holding them for a limited time.

The Department of Homeland Security, which oversees border enforcement, previously told PolitiFact that Obama’s administration did not count the number of separated families.

It’s unclear exactly how many children were separated from their parents during Trump’s administration, which has acknowledged problems in its logistics and record-keeping. Under a court order, around 2,800 children have been reunited with their parents or otherwise discharged from federal custody.

The controversial family separations under Trump’s watch happened as a result of a new policy introduced in April 2018 by Trump’s then-Attorney General Jeff Sessions.

Sessions said an "escalated effort" was needed to address a crisis at the southwest border and directed the implementation of the "zero-tolerance" policy, to prosecute all adults illegally entering the United States.

In March 2017, then-DHS Secretary John Kelly told CNN he was considering separating children from parents to deter illegal immigration. In the Telemundo interview, Trump also said that "when you put the parents together with the children, when you don’t separate," more people arrive at the border.

Amid growing backlash and criticism of family separations, Trump issued an executive order to keep families together, even if a parent faced prosecution. Families will be detained together "where appropriate and consistent with law" and based on available resources, said his June 2018 order.

Before issuing the order, Trump had claimed that family separations could not be stopped through an executive order. That wasn’t true, either.

Our ruling:

Trump said, "When I became president, President Obama had a separation policy. I didn’t have it. He had it."

The Obama administration did not have a policy to separate families arriving illegally at the border. Family separations rarely happened under the Obama administration, which sought to keep families together in detention. Then, based on a court decision, it released families together out of detention.

Separations under Trump happened systematically as a result of his administration’s policy to prosecute all adults crossing the border illegally. After mounting public pressure and criticism, Trump signed an executive order to stop separating families. Around 2,800 children have been reunited with their families because a court ordered the Trump administration to do so.

Trump repeatedly attempts to change the narrative about family separations, but the facts remain the same. Obama did not pass down to Trump a policy to separate families.

Trump’s claim is inaccurate. We rate it False.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-...-trump-again-falsely-says-obama-had-family-s/

 

[BEAL]

People aren’t putting children in camps because a small % of women have to make one of the most difficult choices in their lives.

So please stop comparing the two as tho they are linked.

They each can be discussed and debated on their own, but this idea that oh well if black women weren’t having abortions willy nilly, then conservative lawmakers would show more compassion to brown families coming across the border.

I am ready to march on the streets if that’s what it takes to stop this madness. It’ll take something like a Hong Kong protest

Cause twitter posts won’t do it.

It’s just a helpless feeling to watch this go on

 

[Magnus Maximus]

You are being tricked, deceived, bamboozled and hoodwinked.


If you look at the conditions of the holding centers in 2014 you will see that the same metal blankets you rail against are be used. If you read the article from NPR and watch the video from PBS you will see how the conditions in the detention centers haven’t changed same frigid cells you rail against(cite PBS, NPR, AXIOS). What’s the difference, you loved Obama and hate Trump. The left has you yelling Trump, Trump, it’s his fault, and while ignoring the fact they are just as complicit. You are being manipulated for a political end.

Is your anger righteous, yes it is

Should conditions be improved yes.

Is this abhorrent, yes

We don’t disagree on any of these things. However the leaders and radical left are using a slight of hand to refocus your anger about this on to Trump for a political end. So instead of yelling Trump, Trump- Focus your energy on fixing the problem.



Right now you are being played as useful idiots:

In political jargon, a useful idiot is a derogatory term for a person perceived as a propagandist for a cause, the goals of which he or she does not fully comprehend, and who is used cynically by the leaders of the cause

 

[Irvine511]

Right now you are being played as useful idiots:[/FONT][/COLOR]

In political jargon, a useful idiot is a derogatory term for a person perceived as a propagandist for a cause, the goals of which he or she does not fully comprehend, and who is used cynically by the leaders of the cause

This is the finest example of the pot calling the kettle back we’ve had in years in FYM.

 

[DaveC]

Imagine having your ass handed to you in a debate and resorting to your typical tantrum tactics until the predictable moderator comes to your rescue yet again

FYM you never change

imagine thinking i give a single shit about your useless drive-by opinions. [emoji23]

 

[Magnus Maximus]

People aren’t putting children in camps because a small % of women have to make one of the most difficult choices in their lives.

So please stop comparing the two as tho they are linked.

They each can be discussed and debated on their own, but this idea that oh well if black women weren’t having abortions willy nilly, then conservative lawmakers would show more compassion to brown families coming across the border.

I am ready to march on the streets if that’s what it takes to stop this madness. It’ll take something like a Hong Kong protest

Cause twitter posts won’t do it.

It’s just a helpless feeling to watch this go on

Then pressure your representatives, pressure the left and the right. But when we just yell Trump Trump, nothing gets done.

Push for real immigration reform, there is a good bill in the house right now that will allow in undocumented dreamers to join the military as a pathway to citizenship, it's noting getting a whole lot of traction.

The democrats are every bit as complicit in the detention crisis as well.

 

[Magnus Maximus]

This is the finest example of the pot calling the kettle back we’ve had in years in FYM.

1st. Ok if conditions were just as bad under Obama, the same metal blankets, the same frigid cells, why is it Trumps fault? If the conditions were the same under a Democrat, why would putting another Dem in change anything.

2nd. You don't know my politics

 

[Magnus Maximus]

You don’t get to compare children wrapped in metal blankets in cages being used as a method of terrorizing people in Latin America that.

The Same was going on under Obama. (NPR, PBS, AXIOS)

I provided pictures courtesy of AXIOS

Same cells, same metal blankets. What woke you up to this because you hate Trump?

 

[Irvine511]

1st. Ok if conditions were just as bad under Obama, the same metal blankets, the same frigid cells, why is it Trumps fault? If the conditions were the same under a Democrat, why would putting another Dem in change anything.

2nd. You don't know my politics

The arguments you think you’re effortlessly constructing are repeated endlessly in right wing media. Whether wittingly or not, and I’d say wittingly, you arent offering any sort of “third way” or “honest broker” insights or observations. You’re trying to dress them up as such, but it’s not hard to see through.

We aren’t talking about “conditions” — we are talking about a clear, announced changes in policy under Sessions that created a crisis where there was none before. It was designed to do two things 1) terrorize potential migrants with pictures of jails children, 2) send a “we got tough” message to Trump’s racist base, since they are gradually realizing that Trump is too inept to broker anything including his “wall.”

The change in policy — WHICH WAS A CHANGE THAT HAPPENED UNDER JEFF SESSIONS AND MARKED A DEPARTURE FROM OBAMA-ERA POLICY — was all about optics.

Using innocent children as terror optics.

 

[Magnus Maximus]

Then tell me what has changed in the detention cells. They were frigid under Obama, they were abhorrent under Obama, they haven't changed under Trump. Yet you were silent


and yes you specifically mentioned conditions. In fact that was what the OP was about.


and yes Obama deported more immigrants then Trump. Yet you were silent


Did you know the ACLU sued the Obama administration over his immigration policy and dention centers? They called it an Intimidation tactic, why is that different then what Sessions did.


WASHINGTON — The American Civil Liberties Union today filed a nationwide class-action lawsuit challenging the Obama administration's policy of locking up asylum-seeking mothers and children to intimidate others from coming to the United States.


The case was brought on behalf of mothers and children who have fled extreme violence, death threats, rape, and persecution in Central America and come to the United States for safety.



https://www.aclu.org/press-releases...-detaining-asylum-seekers-intimidation-tactic

 

[Magnus Maximus]

So the ACLU said the Obama admin was a policy of locking up Mothers and children for the sole purpose of intimidating them from coming to the united states.


Locking up families and depriving them of their liberty in order to scare others from seeking refuge in the U.S. is inhumane and illegal," said Judy Rabinovitz, deputy director of the ACLU's Immigrants' Rights Project. "The government should not be using these mothers and their children as pawns.


hmmm that's the very thing you said Sessions did? Why were you silent.

 

[Magnus Maximus]

The arguments you think you’re effortlessly constructing are repeated endlessly in right wing media. .

Wow NPR is right wing

PBS is right wing, I didn't know that

Axios is right wing didn't know that either

No wait the ACLU must be right wing

 

[anitram]

Why are we blaming the GOP, where did they sanction this?

Oh I'm sorry, this is all being driven by President Hillary Clinton. Our mistake.

 

[Irvine511]

this really is frustrating. i now sympathize with Dave C. you aren't even reading.

while there are things to criticize about the Obama policy, which the ACLU did, it is NOT the same policy today. Trump has changed this policy. it is different. it is a different policy than the one that was in place under Obama. is that clear? still with me?

let's keep going.

how is it different?

While it’s true that Obama did, during a 2014 surge in migration, implement wide-scale detention of families, but only under extraordinary circumstances and predicated under two conditions, 1) border officials felt the parents or guardians were a threat to the children, or 2) whether the adults had prior criminal convictions.

in April 2018, the Justice Department, under Jeff Sessions chose a much harsher path, a "zero tolerance" policy that called for every illegal entry case to be prosecuted.

The policy:
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/atto...-zero-tolerance-policy-criminal-illegal-entry

Sessions' remarks:

Today we are here to send a message to the world: we are not going to let this country be overwhelmed.

People are not going to caravan or otherwise stampede our border.

We need legality and integrity in the system.

That’s why the Department of Homeland Security is now referring 100 percent of illegal Southwest Border crossings to the Department of Justice for prosecution. And the Department of Justice will take up those cases.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/speech/...ks-discussing-immigration-enforcement-actions

see? that's the difference. children were thrown into cages by Trump merely because their parents took them with when they tried to cross the boarder. that's the difference. by June 2018 more than 2,300 families had been separated. Trump then walked by his own, different-from-Obama policy back because of the backlash it caused.

clear now? stop falling for Trump's lies. you seem to believe you're smarter than that. stop believing lies, and stop repeating them. you've been called out and shown actual facts. we should be done with this topic now.

i think you're a religious person who is trying to construct an intellectual framework by which you're going to justify a vote for Trump in 2020, when you know that everything he stands for is antithetical to so-called Christian values.

but it's just going to come down to abortion. you can justify any behavior by saying that at least it isn't an abortion.

 

[DaveC]

this really is frustrating. i now sympathize with Dave C. you aren't even reading.

yep, there's a reason i didn't bother to engage again with this guy yesterday.

 

[Diemen]

Imagine having your ass handed to you in a debate and resorting to your typical tantrum tactics until the predictable moderator comes to your rescue yet again

Oh look, the peanut gallery is here.

 

[Magnus Maximus]

I never said Obama separated families did I?, I never said Trumps family separation policy was right did I, because it's not


We agree the conditions are deplorable, We agree family separation is wrong. So why are trying to sell me on things I agree with you on.


But the OP was about conditions, and they blamed Trump for the conditions


My message has been consistent: The unacceptable treatment of detainees discussed in the OP is no different then Obama era policies. I cited the ACLU, NPR, PBS and AXIOS.


Obama also had an intimidation policy that terrorized migrants (ACLU)


Obama also had a no tolerance policy with mandatory minimums (PBS, NPR)


So yelling Trump, Trump is just political. Trump is just loud about it, the lefts hate for him amplifies it, Obama was secretive about his immigration policy. Are things going to change when a dem gets into office, no there not


That's it