US Politics III

[Diemen]

If you want to be willfully obtuse about it, sure, stick to a dictionary definition. If you can't acknowledge that institutional racism is worse than simply individuals holding racist beliefs, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[BVS]

Would you believe ANY American white man if they say they have been oppressed? I'm guessing no. So whether I admit to being oppressed or not is of zero consequence, so why even ask?



Either way - I am expected to accept this thing called white privilege that I cannot possible see or experience or measure. I can only accept what others say about it.



If it cannot be objectively measured and discussed, then people can attach anything they want to it. Do you not see the danger in that? And how do we end this invisible force? What is the measure that we will declare victory? How could white people know the end of this so-called white privilege, if they don't even know it exists? That things are suddenly very shitty for them? How is that okay?



I would rather it be shitty for no race. Enforce the laws. No double standards. That is what gives stability to society. This is both measurable and practical.

I think it does have measurables, it's just a matter of if you're willing to listen?

You only believe it exists if a slur is used. So you have already admitted you're not willing to listen.

 

[AEON]

If you want to be willfully obtuse about it, sure, stick to a dictionary definition. If you can't acknowledge that institutional racism is worse than simply individuals holding racist beliefs, then I don't know what to tell you.

Yes, I agree, that would be worse. The government should not give preferential treatment to any race.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

https://www.axios.com/9-of-american...macist-or-neo-nazi-views-poll-2475534976.html

30 million. Almost 1 in 10. We have one here.

 

[shineon]

Aeon, I believe that your default mode is to fall back on the position that whites are being attacked (or will be attacked) by groups looking to gain acceptance and basic rights. This is an intellectually lazy defense which fails to take into consideration the complexity of the issue at hand. I believed you were better than that. Perhaps I was wrong.

 

[AEON]

Aeon, I believe that your default mode is to fall back on the position that whites are being attacked (or will be attacked) by groups looking to gain acceptance and basic rights. This is an intellectually lazy defense which fails to take into consideration the complexity of the issue at hand. I believed you were better than that. Perhaps I was wrong.

I've admitted that I personally have not been oppressed (any more than any other working man). I've shared with you that I am strongly against oppression and racism. I would defend any group's right to "parade". When people commit crimes they should be punished the same as every race. When people discriminate against other races for jobs, schools, military ...etc, they should be punished. Those are good laws. No, they a great laws.

It seems that these beliefs of mine are not really that controversial, even with the Left. If you really look closely at my arguments, I'm not arguing anything close to "Nazism". I'm arguing that all men and women are equal before the law. That law, and the government that enforces it, should be colorblind.

Heck, even the ACLU defends the neo-nazis' right to speak and march...

 

[AEON]

https://www.axios.com/9-of-american...macist-or-neo-nazi-views-poll-2475534976.html

30 million. Almost 1 in 10. We have one here.

There is a difference between saying something is "okay" and saying something should be "allowed."

 

[nbelcik]

rac·ism

ˈrāˌsizəm

noun

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.



- the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.



Source: Google Dictionary

People who actually study race and racism do not agree with this definition.

 

[BVS]

Yes, I agree, that would be worse. The government should not give preferential treatment to any race.

Has that been the argument in this thread?

I've admitted that I personally have not been oppressed (any more than any other working man). I've shared with you that I am strongly against oppression and racism. I would defend any group's right to "parade". When people commit crimes they should be punished the same as every race. When people discriminate against other races for jobs, schools, military ...etc, they should be punished. Those are good laws. No, they a great laws.



It seems that these beliefs of mine are not really that controversial, even with the Left. If you really look closely at my arguments, I'm not arguing anything close to "Nazism". I'm arguing that all men and women are equal before the law. That law, and the government that enforces it, should be colorblind.



Heck, even the ACLU defends the neo-nazis' right to speak and march...

You're still arguing with a ghost. How is it that you still don't understand the discussion?

 

[AEON]

People who actually study race and racism do not agree with this definition.

Well - that's a bit intellectually convenient isn't it? If someone disagrees with you - you can simply say, "According to MY definition of racism - only white people can be racist."

 

[kiwilad]

I think this discussion does raise a really interesting conundrum. AEON is adamant the right to free speech, to parade, be maintained. Even if those parading are nazis extolling some of the most horrific ideas humankind's ever had.
Yet history (albeit in other parts of the world) seems to suggest the best time to tackle these ideas is while they are still part of a small movement. And because of the nature of these ideas, and the effect these ideas seem to have on the people extolling them, tackling them with dialogue doesn't work.
So what do you do?

AEON is right, I think, that legally speaking that 'parade' shouldn't have been met with violence. But for anyone to ignore the gravity of that 'parade' - in a historical sense and then extrapolating that out into future possibilities - is either ignorant or vile.

Also, violence towards those exercising free speech became a hallmark of Trump's pre-election rallies. His supporters man-handling and punching protesters, Trump encouraging violent action against anti-Trump protesters etc.

The 'all-who-aren't-nazi' group probably should be utterly meticulous in ensuring they don't initiate any violence towards the alt-right over the coming months. Instead meet these parades with absolutely massive numbers.

 

[AEON]

Mother of two black and three white kids' post on racism is a must read

argumentum ad passiones

 

[Diemen]

It's not a good look when you're quicker to defend those who want to air their racist views than those who describe how racism impacts their lives.

 

[AEON]

I think this discussion does raise a really interesting conundrum. AEON is adamant the right to free speech, to parade, be maintained. Even if those parading are nazis extolling some of the most horrific ideas humankind's ever had.
Yet history (albeit in other parts of the world) seems to suggest the best time to tackle these ideas is while they are still part of a small movement. And because of the nature of these ideas, and the effect these ideas seem to have on the people extolling them, tackling them with dialogue doesn't work.
So what do you do?

I agree, it is a challenge. But the white nationalist movement won't grow unless there is more violence against it. We are not 1920's Germany, we are a relatively prosperous nation with more than a few micro-cultures with access to ALL sides of any argument (which is a GOOD thing). Simply put - Nazi Germany rose from the conditions of that people and that time. In the US, there will never be anything like a Nazi Germany. What is more likely, is an ANTIFA "cleansing" of non-approved ideas...

AEON is right, I think, that legally speaking that 'parade' shouldn't have been met with violence. But for anyone to ignore the gravity of that 'parade' - in a historical sense and then extrapolating that out into future possibilities - is either ignorant or vile.

Again , 100 percent agree. I am in full support of orderly counter-protesting, writing articles that counter white nationalist ideology, videos showing the opposite POV...etc. America is healthy enough for debate. When people start starving - well then, it truly is anyone's game at that point (hello Neegan). Until then, I seriously believe most of our societal issues can be handled by debate (man, I do miss Christopher Hitchens!)

Also, violence towards those exercising free speech became a hallmark of Trump's pre-election rallies. His supporters man-handling and punching protesters, Trump encouraging violent action against anti-Trump protesters etc.

Agreed. All violence at these political event (Left or Right) are unacceptable.

The 'all-who-aren't-nazi' group probably should be utterly meticulous in ensuring they don't initiate any violence towards the alt-right over the coming months. Instead meet these parades with absolutely massive numbers.

There are very, very few white nationalist. And of that few - even FEWER are willing to risk their careers by being televised waving a frikin' nazi flag (I wouldn't be surprised if we find out there is at least one or two "plants" just to make it seem more nazi - but that is ONLY a theory, I'm not sticking by it) ...

And you are SO right. If the White Nationalist (all 200 of them) would suffer a PR nightmare if they attacked a group of seriously peaceful counter-protesters. But ANTIFA would never allow that to happen....seriously, they are the Left's worst enemy...

Our common worst enemy are the corrupt career politicians. Both Republicans and Democrats are getting rich by passing laws and regulations that benefit the companies that pay for their campaigns - and then they break every insider-trading law imaginable to turn a $200,000 a year job into $500,000,000 of wealth.

 

[AEON]

It's not a good look when you're quicker to defend those who want to air their racist views than those who describe how racism impacts their lives.

I realize that. I realize I am skating on thin ice here (at least on this subject). I tend to play devil's advocate because deep down, I am a brat. At the same time, there is validity to what I am saying and I sincerely believe that NO racism (as defined by the dictionary) is better than "qualified" racism.

 

[nbelcik]

Well - that's a bit intellectually convenient isn't it? If someone disagrees with you - you can simply say, "According to MY definition of racism - only white people can be racist."

Except that these people are academics who you know, actually study this stuff

 

[AEON]

Except that these people are academics who you know, actually study this stuff

Yeah, well, I'm not exactly outside of that world (you would be shocked at how racist philosophy professors can be...I mean, actual racism) However, the professors I've known and worked with usually agree on this point: you cannot have a debate unless you can agree on basic terminology.

 

[AEON]

 

[AEON]

I loved having conservatives like nbcrusader and 80sU2isBest here,

I know both of them. You treated them like garbage. Surprise! They are no longer around.

 

[AEON]

...dp

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I know both of them. You treated them like garbage. Surprise! They are no longer around.

I did? Or were you speaking in a general sense? 'Cause I have no memory of doing that. If I ever do upset anyone here with anything I say, it's certainly not intentional, and I'd gladly apologize to anyone who I may well have offended or angered somehow.

And I don't really remember other posters here treating them like garbage, either, but there were periods where I was in and out of this forum for a whole host of various reasons, so maybe I missed something go down?

 

[AEON]

I did? Or were you speaking in a general sense? 'Cause I have no memory of doing that. If I ever do upset anyone here with anything I say, it's certainly not intentional, and I'd gladly apologize to anyone who I may well have offended or angered somehow.

And I don't really remember other posters here treating them like garbage, either, but there were periods where I was in and out of this forum for a whole host of various reasons, so maybe I missed something go down?

I meant it in a general sense, my apologies

 

[mama cass]

argumentum ad passiones

are you for real?

 

[mama cass]

It's not a good look when you're quicker to defend those who want to air their racist views than those who describe how racism impacts their lives.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Nice of Trump to pardon a racist and sign an order banning transgender troops right as a hurricane is about to hit.

 

[Diemen]

Aeon, you are foolishly naive if you think there are only a tiny number (200? Ha!) of white nationalists.

 

[Irvine511]

I know both of them. You treated them like garbage. Surprise! They are no longer around.

While I can agree that it's never fun to be outnumbered, this seems a little overblown -- one of these posters did return not so long ago, and was like a different person, huge decline in the quality of posts and began citing articles from the laziest places in conservative media -- it can't be fun to defend bad ideas.

I would hardly blame the forum. I agree there are some people who are needlessly belligerent, but that's kind of how it goes on the internet. And though Melon no longer posts here, he put up with years of fairly rank homophobia from certain people (don't forget, U2 has a large Christian following as well) fought back, and today, in here, homophobia is about on par with racism.

So if the ideas were good, they'd eventually win, despite being unpopular or other posters treating them like garbage.

You were around then (before me, even).

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I meant it in a general sense, my apologies

Gotcha. It's cool .

Nice of Trump to pardon a racist and sign an order banning transgender troops right as a hurricane is about to hit.

Talk about your incredibly convenient timing, huh?

I heard a thing yesterday with Trump saying something to the effect of how he was keeping an eye on everything related to the hurricane and was prepared to help. I could just see a few people in the storm's path hearing that and being like, "Uh, no, that's okay, Trump, we can get by without your attempts at...helping."

(On a serious note, sending good thoughts to everyone being affected by the hurricane right now. Here's hoping the recovery efforts will go as smoothly as possible.)

 

[shineon]

While I can agree that it's never fun to be outnumbered, this seems a little overblown -- one of these posters did return not so long ago, and was like a different person, huge decline in the quality of posts and began citing articles from the laziest places in conservative media -- it can't be fun to defend bad ideas.

I would hardly blame the forum. I agree there are some people who are needlessly belligerent, but that's kind of how it goes on the internet. And though Melon no longer posts here, he put up with years of fairly rank homophobia from certain people (don't forget, U2 has a large Christian following as well) fought back, and today, in here, homophobia is about on par with racism.

So if the ideas were good, they'd eventually win, despite being unpopular or other posters treating them like garbage.

You were around then (before me, even).

I think Aeon isn't the only white male feeling attacked and powerless, for whatever reason. There is a syndrome called "deaths of despair" right now which has particularly struck middle aged white males. These are deaths by violence, drug overdose, alcoholism and suicide all caused by despair, depression, or other mental illness. On my street alone I'm aware of two middle aged men committing suicide in the past year.
In a time of rapid social change, perhaps some simply aren't going to adapt and are going to revert to primitive ideas such as white supremacy and racism, ultimately of course going the way of the dinosaur. Some, feeling powerless themselves, will flirt with these ideas to one degree or another.
My other thought regarding the white nationalists/supremacists has to do with their ultimate redemption. It helps to look at them as human, and increasing our understanding may allow us to view them through a lens of compassion (but not acceptance of their ideas).
A feeling of powerlessness can come from many causes. First of all, how many of these marching young men still live in their parent's basement? How many of them are impotent or somehow unable to get a girlfriend due to their emotionally stunted nature? How many of them are intellectually bereft--borderline intelligence being an IQ in the 70 to 90 range? How many have some kind of physical disability or unusual facial structure which makes them undesirable? How many are unemployed or underemployed? How many have been abused/been through the foster care system/have alcoholic or drug addicted parents? How many are themselves addicted to substances/porn, etc.?
The views of the white nationalist/supremacist are repugnant and must be resisted in whatever way possible. I personally don't have as many qualms as some about using violence as a last resort, should the Nazis initiate that or use threats and intimidation in large numbers.
However, I do advocate using a lens of compassion. Can some of these people be redeemed? In a time of rapid social change, how does a society allow the formerly dominant subculture to feel as though they've retained a portion of their personal power?

 

[IWasBored]

Boo fucking hoo. Straight dudes are so oppressed by the notion of having to share some of the privileges they've enjoyed for the last forever that they're turning to Hitler for comfort. Setting aside the fact that this isn't exactly new, and that this has always been how white supremacists get poor, straight white dudes to join their cause--much like heroin, it's just finally reached suburbia in large enough quantities for the mainstream general public to actually care about it. If there's some epidemic of middle age white guys killing themselves over he fact that women don't want to revert to 1950s gender roles, black people want to stop getting killed by cops, and LGBT people want to get married, join the military, and just exist without being second class, etc. let them take themselves out.