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Old 08-26-2017, 11:19 AM   #61
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AEON, you also seem really fixated and obsessed with the idea that the US is a nation of laws and that the laws on the books exist to prevent and/or mitigate racism and if only they were applied across the board, the entire issue of racism would disappear.

That's a really...strange way to look at things to be honest. The law and legal system are NOT the appropriate tools to fix social problems. You cannot criminalize institutional racism, for example. How many studies have been done by places like Harvard that have explicitly shown that African Americans with "black sounding" names on resumes are routinely ignored and not invited to interviews? That even if you control for all other factors like age and education level, an Alison Smith will have a huge leg up as compared to a Shaniqua Davis. Hell they even did studies where the test subjects all had "white sounding" names and conducted interviews over the phone. The results of those showed that interviewees who "sounded" black had way lower rates of being called in for in-person meetings, even controlling for all other factors. How do you address that through the law? What about my friends who are POCs who routinely get followed in higher-end clothing stores or even something as stupid as the corner store? You have no idea what that is like on a nearly daily basis, but they do and it is just one small thing in a huge pile of injustices they have to live with. Again, the shopkeeper following them around is not behaving illegally no do I think you would advocate somehow sanctioning him under the law; he is simply being rude and acting on racist stereotypes even if he does not consider himself to be a racist. We all have underlying assumptions we make about people, whether we like it or not.

So this idea of yours that we have great laws and if you applied the laws to EVERYBODY there would be no problem is really shortsighted and frankly extraordinarily naive.
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Old 08-26-2017, 11:51 AM   #62
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I agree, it is a challenge. But the white nationalist movement won't grow unless there is more violence against it. We are not 1920's Germany, we are a relatively prosperous nation with more than a few micro-cultures with access to ALL sides of any argument (which is a GOOD thing). Simply put - Nazi Germany rose from the conditions of that people and that time. In the US, there will never be anything like a Nazi Germany. What is more likely, is an ANTIFA "cleansing" of non-approved ideas...



Again , 100 percent agree. I am in full support of orderly counter-protesting, writing articles that counter white nationalist ideology, videos showing the opposite POV...etc. America is healthy enough for debate. When people start starving - well then, it truly is anyone's game at that point (hello Neegan). Until then, I seriously believe most of our societal issues can be handled by debate (man, I do miss Christopher Hitchens!)



Agreed. All violence at these political event (Left or Right) are unacceptable.



There are very, very few white nationalist. And of that few - even FEWER are willing to risk their careers by being televised waving a frikin' nazi flag (I wouldn't be surprised if we find out there is at least one or two "plants" just to make it seem more nazi - but that is ONLY a theory, I'm not sticking by it) ...



And you are SO right. If the White Nationalist (all 200 of them) would suffer a PR nightmare if they attacked a group of seriously peaceful counter-protesters. But ANTIFA would never allow that to happen....seriously, they are the Left's worst enemy...



Our common worst enemy are the corrupt career politicians. Both Republicans and Democrats are getting rich by passing laws and regulations that benefit the companies that pay for their campaigns - and then they break every insider-trading law imaginable to turn a $200,000 a year job into $500,000,000 of wealth.


You are being extremely naive. As someone who's been watching this unfold, I knew Charlottesville was going to happen. No these aren't plants. How are you so in denial of this being a growing movement?

White nationalists feel emboldened, they feel they have an ally, and now feel they can come out and have a voice. You decide why this president has made them feel this way, because I know. These are the folks that gave him the votes he needed in many areas, and they know it, as much as you want to be in denial. They do not vote for major ticket candidates, if they vote at all, but they did this time.

White nationalist don't wave Nazi flags. They look like you. Unite the right was about white nationalist reaching out and organizing with KKK and Nazi groups to put aside differences and unite under this Presidency. We're throwing them all in the same category, but they really are different, just united in their ignorance.

Make no mistake, they're growing and they have large numbers. You can find them in plain sight all over Twitter.
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Old 08-26-2017, 12:05 PM   #63
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Boo fucking hoo. Straight dudes are so oppressed by the notion of having to share some of the privileges they've enjoyed for the last forever that they're turning to Hitler for comfort. Setting aside the fact that this isn't exactly new, and that this has always been how white supremacists get poor, straight white dudes to join their cause--much like heroin, it's just finally reached suburbia in large enough quantities for the mainstream general public to actually care about it. If there's some epidemic of middle age white guys killing themselves over he fact that women don't want to revert to 1950s gender roles, black people want to stop getting killed by cops, and LGBT people want to get married, join the military, and just exist without being second class, etc. let them take themselves out.
that's really crass, simplistic, and not helpful at all.
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Old 08-26-2017, 12:12 PM   #64
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Yeah, well, I'm not exactly outside of that world (you would be shocked at how racist philosophy professors can be...I mean, actual racism) However, the professors I've known and worked with usually agree on this point: you cannot have a debate unless you can agree on basic terminology.


In all of the college classes that I've taken on race, which is quite a few since it's something I'm very interested in, we've used the definition that includes the aspect of power. And that definition makes sense. A black person hating a white person because of their race is prejudice for sure, but they don't have the institutional power to create systems that oppress white people. White people who held racial hatred did create institutions and systems that were designed to oppress black people. We still see the effects of the most blatant of these systems (slavery, Jim Crow, redlining) today and other oppressive systems (mass incarceration, school to prison pipeline) remain in place today.
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Old 08-26-2017, 12:19 PM   #65
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You are being extremely naive. As someone who's been watching this unfold, I knew Charlottesville was going to happen. No these aren't plants. How are you so in denial of this being a growing movement?

White nationalists feel emboldened, they feel they have an ally, and now feel they can come out and have a voice. You decide why this president has made them feel this way, because I know. These are the folks that gave him the votes he needed in many areas, and they know it, as much as you want to be in denial. They do not vote for major ticket candidates, if they vote at all, but they did this time.

White nationalist don't wave Nazi flags. They look like you. Unite the right was about white nationalist reaching out and organizing with KKK and Nazi groups to put aside differences and unite under this Presidency. We're throwing them all in the same category, but they really are different, just united in their ignorance.

Make no mistake, they're growing and they have large numbers. You can find them in plain sight all over Twitter.
I am still in the Army Reserves - so I get to see , hear, and interact with young men fresh out of high school on a regular basis. Something has certainly changed over the last 2-3 years. These kids seem like literal fascists - from their haircuts to their language to the roman salute. It turns out, most of them are just rebelling against political correctness. They are trying to be "rebellious," so to speak, by saying things that can't be said. I wouldn't label these kids as "true believers." And yes, those who cross the line are punished, but it does seem odd to see Latino and Asian neo-nazis (point is, they're not).
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Old 08-26-2017, 12:24 PM   #66
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I am still in the Army Reserves - so I get to see , hear, and interact with young men fresh out of high school on a regular basis. Something has certainly changed over the last 2-3 years. These kids seem like literal fascists - from their haircuts to their language to the roman salute. It turns out, most of them are just rebelling against political correctness. They are trying to be "rebellious," so to speak, by saying things that can't be said. I wouldn't label these kids as "true believers." And yes, those who cross the line are punished, but it does seem odd to see Latino and Asian neo-nazis (point is, they're not).


That's great, but that's not who I'm talking about.
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Old 08-26-2017, 12:29 PM   #67
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In all of the college classes that I've taken on race, which is quite a few since it's something I'm very interested in, we've used the definition that includes the aspect of power.
I would not disagree with the concept that racism can be used to attain and protect power, but I don't think having power is a requirement for racism. Racism, as a term, stands on its own. The how and why and when it's used- all worthy of debate.
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Old 08-26-2017, 01:20 PM   #68
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that's really crass, simplistic, and not helpful at all.

I agree, but I did just read like 16 pages of a guy arguing that we should give white supremacists a platform because BLM has one and Brietbart says they're way more violent. I'm not sure who that helps either.
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Old 08-26-2017, 02:41 PM   #69
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I would not disagree with the concept that racism can be used to attain and protect power, but I don't think having power is a requirement for racism. Racism, as a term, stands on its own. The how and why and when it's used- all worthy of debate.
The point is that white racists have a system in place to retain power and systematically deny it to others. Black Racists , lacking that system, can only engage in covert actions whose consequences are usually isolated and minimal.
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Old 08-26-2017, 03:09 PM   #70
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If only somebody could provide us with a scale of racism, things would be so much easier
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Old 08-26-2017, 03:38 PM   #71
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I'm sure AEON has; use the n word and you're racist, you don't then you're not. Outside of that word it's all glorified hyperbole.
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Old 08-26-2017, 03:42 PM   #72
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So one of the main organizers behind Charlottesville tweeted his excitement about the sheriff's pardon, and they're seeing as a sign that maybe Trump is indeed on their sign.

This particular "leader" has 185k followers.

So a few more to sympathize with than the 200 you thought you were feeling sorry for.
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Old 08-26-2017, 06:19 PM   #73
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I mean David Duke himself said in that TV interview that Charlottesville "fulfills the promise of Donald Trump".
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Old 08-26-2017, 07:52 PM   #74
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I mean David Duke himself said in that TV interview that Charlottesville "fulfills the promise of Donald Trump".
Let's not let Trump's fucking idiocy divide us into camps. We may actually have been getting somewhere with Aeon. Were we, Aeon? Hey, at least we determined you like "Ultraviolet".
"Baby, baby, baby light my way..."
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Old 08-26-2017, 09:28 PM   #75
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As White Nationalist in Charlottesville Fired, Police ‘Never Moved’ https://nyti.ms/2w5trI6
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