US Politics III

[anitram]

AEON, you also seem really fixated and obsessed with the idea that the US is a nation of laws and that the laws on the books exist to prevent and/or mitigate racism and if only they were applied across the board, the entire issue of racism would disappear.

That's a really...strange way to look at things to be honest. The law and legal system are NOT the appropriate tools to fix social problems. You cannot criminalize institutional racism, for example. How many studies have been done by places like Harvard that have explicitly shown that African Americans with "black sounding" names on resumes are routinely ignored and not invited to interviews? That even if you control for all other factors like age and education level, an Alison Smith will have a huge leg up as compared to a Shaniqua Davis. Hell they even did studies where the test subjects all had "white sounding" names and conducted interviews over the phone. The results of those showed that interviewees who "sounded" black had way lower rates of being called in for in-person meetings, even controlling for all other factors. How do you address that through the law? What about my friends who are POCs who routinely get followed in higher-end clothing stores or even something as stupid as the corner store? You have no idea what that is like on a nearly daily basis, but they do and it is just one small thing in a huge pile of injustices they have to live with. Again, the shopkeeper following them around is not behaving illegally no do I think you would advocate somehow sanctioning him under the law; he is simply being rude and acting on racist stereotypes even if he does not consider himself to be a racist. We all have underlying assumptions we make about people, whether we like it or not.

So this idea of yours that we have great laws and if you applied the laws to EVERYBODY there would be no problem is really shortsighted and frankly extraordinarily naive.

 

[BVS]

I agree, it is a challenge. But the white nationalist movement won't grow unless there is more violence against it. We are not 1920's Germany, we are a relatively prosperous nation with more than a few micro-cultures with access to ALL sides of any argument (which is a GOOD thing). Simply put - Nazi Germany rose from the conditions of that people and that time. In the US, there will never be anything like a Nazi Germany. What is more likely, is an ANTIFA "cleansing" of non-approved ideas...



Again , 100 percent agree. I am in full support of orderly counter-protesting, writing articles that counter white nationalist ideology, videos showing the opposite POV...etc. America is healthy enough for debate. When people start starving - well then, it truly is anyone's game at that point (hello Neegan). Until then, I seriously believe most of our societal issues can be handled by debate (man, I do miss Christopher Hitchens!)



Agreed. All violence at these political event (Left or Right) are unacceptable.



There are very, very few white nationalist. And of that few - even FEWER are willing to risk their careers by being televised waving a frikin' nazi flag (I wouldn't be surprised if we find out there is at least one or two "plants" just to make it seem more nazi - but that is ONLY a theory, I'm not sticking by it) ...



And you are SO right. If the White Nationalist (all 200 of them) would suffer a PR nightmare if they attacked a group of seriously peaceful counter-protesters. But ANTIFA would never allow that to happen....seriously, they are the Left's worst enemy...



Our common worst enemy are the corrupt career politicians. Both Republicans and Democrats are getting rich by passing laws and regulations that benefit the companies that pay for their campaigns - and then they break every insider-trading law imaginable to turn a $200,000 a year job into $500,000,000 of wealth.

You are being extremely naive. As someone who's been watching this unfold, I knew Charlottesville was going to happen. No these aren't plants. How are you so in denial of this being a growing movement?

White nationalists feel emboldened, they feel they have an ally, and now feel they can come out and have a voice. You decide why this president has made them feel this way, because I know. These are the folks that gave him the votes he needed in many areas, and they know it, as much as you want to be in denial. They do not vote for major ticket candidates, if they vote at all, but they did this time.

White nationalist don't wave Nazi flags. They look like you. Unite the right was about white nationalist reaching out and organizing with KKK and Nazi groups to put aside differences and unite under this Presidency. We're throwing them all in the same category, but they really are different, just united in their ignorance.

Make no mistake, they're growing and they have large numbers. You can find them in plain sight all over Twitter.

 

[DaveC]

Boo fucking hoo. Straight dudes are so oppressed by the notion of having to share some of the privileges they've enjoyed for the last forever that they're turning to Hitler for comfort. Setting aside the fact that this isn't exactly new, and that this has always been how white supremacists get poor, straight white dudes to join their cause--much like heroin, it's just finally reached suburbia in large enough quantities for the mainstream general public to actually care about it. If there's some epidemic of middle age white guys killing themselves over he fact that women don't want to revert to 1950s gender roles, black people want to stop getting killed by cops, and LGBT people want to get married, join the military, and just exist without being second class, etc. let them take themselves out.

that's really crass, simplistic, and not helpful at all.

 

[nbelcik]

Yeah, well, I'm not exactly outside of that world (you would be shocked at how racist philosophy professors can be...I mean, actual racism) However, the professors I've known and worked with usually agree on this point: you cannot have a debate unless you can agree on basic terminology.

In all of the college classes that I've taken on race, which is quite a few since it's something I'm very interested in, we've used the definition that includes the aspect of power. And that definition makes sense. A black person hating a white person because of their race is prejudice for sure, but they don't have the institutional power to create systems that oppress white people. White people who held racial hatred did create institutions and systems that were designed to oppress black people. We still see the effects of the most blatant of these systems (slavery, Jim Crow, redlining) today and other oppressive systems (mass incarceration, school to prison pipeline) remain in place today.

 

[AEON]

You are being extremely naive. As someone who's been watching this unfold, I knew Charlottesville was going to happen. No these aren't plants. How are you so in denial of this being a growing movement?

White nationalists feel emboldened, they feel they have an ally, and now feel they can come out and have a voice. You decide why this president has made them feel this way, because I know. These are the folks that gave him the votes he needed in many areas, and they know it, as much as you want to be in denial. They do not vote for major ticket candidates, if they vote at all, but they did this time.

White nationalist don't wave Nazi flags. They look like you. Unite the right was about white nationalist reaching out and organizing with KKK and Nazi groups to put aside differences and unite under this Presidency. We're throwing them all in the same category, but they really are different, just united in their ignorance.

Make no mistake, they're growing and they have large numbers. You can find them in plain sight all over Twitter.

I am still in the Army Reserves - so I get to see , hear, and interact with young men fresh out of high school on a regular basis. Something has certainly changed over the last 2-3 years. These kids seem like literal fascists - from their haircuts to their language to the roman salute. It turns out, most of them are just rebelling against political correctness. They are trying to be "rebellious," so to speak, by saying things that can't be said. I wouldn't label these kids as "true believers." And yes, those who cross the line are punished, but it does seem odd to see Latino and Asian neo-nazis (point is, they're not).

 

[BVS]

I am still in the Army Reserves - so I get to see , hear, and interact with young men fresh out of high school on a regular basis. Something has certainly changed over the last 2-3 years. These kids seem like literal fascists - from their haircuts to their language to the roman salute. It turns out, most of them are just rebelling against political correctness. They are trying to be "rebellious," so to speak, by saying things that can't be said. I wouldn't label these kids as "true believers." And yes, those who cross the line are punished, but it does seem odd to see Latino and Asian neo-nazis (point is, they're not).

That's great, but that's not who I'm talking about.

 

[AEON]

In all of the college classes that I've taken on race, which is quite a few since it's something I'm very interested in, we've used the definition that includes the aspect of power.

I would not disagree with the concept that racism can be used to attain and protect power, but I don't think having power is a requirement for racism. Racism, as a term, stands on its own. The how and why and when it's used- all worthy of debate.

 

[IWasBored]

that's really crass, simplistic, and not helpful at all.

I agree, but I did just read like 16 pages of a guy arguing that we should give white supremacists a platform because BLM has one and Brietbart says they're way more violent. I'm not sure who that helps either.

 

[shineon]

I would not disagree with the concept that racism can be used to attain and protect power, but I don't think having power is a requirement for racism. Racism, as a term, stands on its own. The how and why and when it's used- all worthy of debate.

The point is that white racists have a system in place to retain power and systematically deny it to others. Black Racists , lacking that system, can only engage in covert actions whose consequences are usually isolated and minimal.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

If only somebody could provide us with a scale of racism, things would be so much easier

 

[BVS]

I'm sure AEON has; use the n word and you're racist, you don't then you're not. Outside of that word it's all glorified hyperbole.

 

[BVS]

So one of the main organizers behind Charlottesville tweeted his excitement about the sheriff's pardon, and they're seeing as a sign that maybe Trump is indeed on their sign.

This particular "leader" has 185k followers.

So a few more to sympathize with than the 200 you thought you were feeling sorry for.

 

[BoMac]

I mean David Duke himself said in that TV interview that Charlottesville "fulfills the promise of Donald Trump".

 

[shineon]

I mean David Duke himself said in that TV interview that Charlottesville "fulfills the promise of Donald Trump".

Let's not let Trump's fucking idiocy divide us into camps. We may actually have been getting somewhere with Aeon. Were we, Aeon? Hey, at least we determined you like "Ultraviolet".
"Baby, baby, baby light my way..."

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

As White Nationalist in Charlottesville Fired, Police ‘Never Moved’ https://nyti.ms/2w5trI6

 

[nbelcik]

As White Nationalist in Charlottesville Fired, Police ‘Never Moved’ https://nyti.ms/2w5trI6

White nationalists stood by while other white nationalists marched

 

[AEON]

Let's not let Trump's fucking idiocy divide us into camps. We may actually have been getting somewhere with Aeon. Were we, Aeon? Hey, at least we determined you like "Ultraviolet".
"Baby, baby, baby light my way..."

Of course there is common ground. And for the most part, I think most of us here want the same ends - we just disagree on the means.

 

[AEON]

AEON, you also seem really fixated and obsessed with the idea that the US is a nation of laws and that the laws on the books exist to prevent and/or mitigate racism and if only they were applied across the board, the entire issue of racism would disappear.

That's a really...strange way to look at things to be honest. The law and legal system are NOT the appropriate tools to fix social problems.

They are the only genuine tools that civilization has. I certainly prefer laws, and properly enforcing those laws, over relying on something like ANTIFA to fix social problems. The arts can also have a major influence, but that would also mean allowing the whole range of ideas to be expressed - otherwise, eventually, people will catch on they are receiving "PC filtered"stories.

You cannot criminalize institutional racism, for example. How many studies have been done by places like Harvard that have explicitly shown that African Americans with "black sounding" names on resumes are routinely ignored and not invited to interviews? That even if you control for all other factors like age and education level, an Alison Smith will have a huge leg up as compared to a Shaniqua Davis. Hell they even did studies where the test subjects all had "white sounding" names and conducted interviews over the phone.

Fair enough. Is this behavior unique to whites?

We all have underlying assumptions we make about people, whether we like it or not.

Absolutely agree. The human brain is always looking for patterns so that it is "free" to receive and process new data.

So this idea of yours that we have great laws and if you applied the laws to EVERYBODY there would be no problem is really shortsighted and frankly extraordinarily naive.

It the best, most measurable method available. That and Free Speech. You can try PC teaching, but then you get the fascist Generation Z as a result (have you noticed all the Hitler Youth haircuts? They really are not an accident). Listen to teen boys play video games...wow. At least Generation X and the Millennials had to hide their racism (out of shame). Now - it's just out there and they-don't-give-a-sh*t. However, like I said - I don't think these kids are "true believers" as much as they are being "rebellious" against their Political Correct education and media.

 

[AEON]

White nationalists stood by while other white nationalists marched

I agree. Race inspired violence is terrible:

CNN
Video of the torture has stunned the country, not just because of the graphic abuse, but because of the comments made by some of the assailants.
"*F*ck Donald Trump!" one attacker shouted in the video. "F*ck white people!"

Chicago torture video: 4 charged with hate crimes, kidnapping - CNN

 

[AEON]

East St. Louis



East St. Louis was named an All-America City in 1959 by the National Civic League. Then they started electing Democrats…and only Democrats…

After over 50 years of electing nothing but Democrats…(I guess that people thought that sweet ol' Texas white man LBJ and his Great Society speeches were genuine.. and had nothing to do with the Immigration Act of 1965 - legislation that would keep African-American wages down to this day... )

… the racial makeup of the city is 97.74% Black or African-American (so much for racial diversity)
… Lacking sufficient tax revenues, the city cut back on maintenance, sewers failed and garbage pickup ceased (shit and garbage literally flow through streets). Police cars and radios stopped working. (translation: a filthy, smelly, crime-ridden Third World anarchy...if you have seen it with your own eyes, please confirm that is NO exaggeration. If you haven't seen East. St Louis...I challenge you to go. Go see the reality of Left ideology)

To an alien visiting Earth, they would wonder...how is it possible that virtually every city run by Democrats is a literal pile of sh*t!?! Why do these people keep voting Democrat? (oh....the promises...)

Thankfully, as this last election demonstrated, there is a trend of African-Americans finally parting ways with the false promises of the Democratic Party and the Left.

So, what is the Democrat Party response to losing the black vote and the free (no, they lost that in the Civil War) cheap labor to please their Big Business sponsors who will finance their re-elections? Oh, no worries, they say…they can still import it! (there is nothing better than importing cheap labor to keep wages down...well, there is one thing better: label those opposed to this wage-suppression as "Racist!")

You see, the Democrats want you to believe the parties have flip-flopped. Not true. The Democratic Party has consistently stood for one thing since the beginning, and one thing only….cheap labor! (which is why the elite funds them so strongly). After all, who could be angry at a man picking strawberries or lifting plywood for 10 cents an hour to feed his family? (while at the same time ignoring the US citizens, of all colors, displaced by this...)

One must wonder, based on pure data, is the Left really concerned about racism? Or, are they using false accusations of racism to supply their donors with cheap labor?

I contend, the Democratic Party, both in the past AND the present, has been the biggest enemy of the African American community on US soil. There is a MOUNTAIN of evidence to support this...Google, with all its flaws...is still decent at one thing: data. I challenge you to use numbers and verifiable data to prove this assertion wrong.

Source: East St. Louis, Illinois - Wikipedia

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

East St. Louis



East St. Louis was named an All-America City in 1959 by the National Civic League. Then they started electing Democrats…and only Democrats…

After over 50 years of electing nothing but Democrats…(I guess that people thought that sweet ol' Texas white man LBJ and his Great Society speeches were genuine.. and had nothing to do with the Immigration Act of 1965 - legislation that would keep African-American wages down to this day... )

… the racial makeup of the city is 97.74% Black or African-American (so much for racial diversity)
… Lacking sufficient tax revenues, the city cut back on maintenance, sewers failed and garbage pickup ceased (shit and garbage literally flow through streets). Police cars and radios stopped working. (translation: a filthy, smelly, crime-ridden Third World anarchy...if you have seen it with your own eyes, please confirm that is NO exaggeration. If you haven't seen East. St Louis...I challenge you to go. Go see the reality of Left ideology)

To an alien visiting Earth, they would wonder...how is it possible that virtually every city run by Democrats is a literal pile of sh*t!?! Why do these people keep voting Democrat? (oh....the promises...)

Thankfully, as this last election demonstrated, there is a trend of African-Americans finally parting ways with the false promises of the Democratic Party and the Left.

So, what is the Democrat Party response to losing the black vote and the free (no, they lost that in the Civil War) cheap labor to please their Big Business sponsors who will finance their re-elections? Oh, no worries, they say…they can still import it! (there is nothing better than importing cheap labor to keep wages down...well, there is one thing better: label those opposed to this wage-suppression as "Racist!")

You see, the Democrats want you to believe the parties have flip-flopped. Not true. The Democratic Party has consistently stood for one thing since the beginning, and one thing only….cheap labor! (which is why the elite funds them so strongly). After all, who could be angry at a man picking strawberries or lifting plywood for 10 cents an hour to feed his family? (while at the same time ignoring the US citizens, of all colors, displaced by this...)

One must wonder, based on pure data, is the Left really concerned about racism? Or, are they using false accusations of racism to supply their donors with cheap labor?

I contend, the Democratic Party, both in the past AND the present, has been the biggest enemy of the African American community on US soil. There is a MOUNTAIN of evidence to support this...Google, with all its flaws...is still decent at one thing: data. I challenge you to use numbers and verifiable data to prove this assertion wrong.

Source: East St. Louis, Illinois - Wikipedia

Wow.

First, East St Louis was a victim of massive deindustrialization. If anything, and the parts of the Wikipedia article you so selectively left out actually point to this, systematic racism is what led to the city falling further after deindustrialization took root. Whites were able to leave and get jobs, blacks were not. Freeways ripped through the city to allow suburban, white workers to get to St Louis quicker.

These problems were already spiraling out of control long before the "Dixiecrats" jumped ship to the Republican party, so your "this is what happens when you only elect democrats" thing is a load of crap. Just look at all the shit flowing down the streets of San Francisco.

This post is garbage. That you left out the part about deindustrialization and tearing apart of neighborhoods, but made sure to include that the city's population was 97% black shoes your true colors.

 

[BoMac]

https://twitter.com/margarita/status/901816452558319617

 

[AEON]

Wow.

First, East St Louis was a victim of massive deindustrialization. If anything, and the parts of the Wikipedia article you so selectively left out actually point to this, systematic racism is what led to the city falling further after deindustrialization took root. Whites were able to leave and get jobs, blacks were not. Freeways ripped through the city to allow suburban, white workers to get to St Louis quicker.

These problems were already spiraling out of control long before the "Dixiecrats" jumped ship to the Republican party, so your "this is what happens when you only elect democrats" thing is a load of crap. Just look at all the shit flowing down the streets of San Francisco.

This post is garbage. That you left out the part about deindustrialization and tearing apart of neighborhoods, but made sure to include that the city's population was 97% black shoes your true colors.

The point about the city being 97 percent black was to make it perfectly clear who the victims are...and who was/is their leadership through the entire downslide.

And San Francisco is not that clean. It's not East St. Louis, but there is plenty of trash and the theater district reeks of the urine from the homeless.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

https://twitter.com/margarita/status/901816452558319617

Wooooooow.

Pretty much summed it up, right there.

 

[shineon]

They are the only genuine tools that civilization has. I certainly prefer laws, and properly enforcing those laws, over relying on something like ANTIFA to fix social problems. The arts can also have a major influence, but that would also mean allowing the whole range of ideas to be expressed - otherwise, eventually, people will catch on they are receiving "PC filtered"stories.

Fair enough. Is this behavior unique to whites?

Absolutely agree. The human brain is always looking for patterns so that it is "free" to receive and process new data.

It the best, most measurable method available. That and Free Speech. You can try PC teaching, but then you get the fascist Generation Z as a result (have you noticed all the Hitler Youth haircuts? They really are not an accident). Listen to teen boys play video games...wow. At least Generation X and the Millennials had to hide their racism (out of shame). Now - it's just out there and they-don't-give-a-sh*t. However, like I said - I don't think these kids are "true believers" as much as they are being "rebellious" against their Political Correct education and media.

I work in a school but am not familiar with the Hitler Youth haircuts? To what do you refer? My observation is that a lot of kids aren't rebellious these days. Most of the student leaders are very entrenched with adult culture and are very much pleasers of the Establishment. It would be interesting if there were a small bit of rebellion--but most are too focused on their SAT scores and getting all A's. If not, they form in subgroups that have an interest in other things: football, farming, hunting, pot, etc. I think, with exceptions, that a lot of young people are far more tolerant than previous generations. Most seem to have no problem with gays, people w/disabilities, etc. Racial issues are still a challenge for some, but I would say that outright racists are the exception to the rule.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

The point about the city being 97 percent black was to make it perfectly clear who the victims are...and who was/is their leadership through the entire downslide.

And San Francisco is not that clean. It's not East St. Louis, but there is plenty of trash and the theater district reeks of the urine from the homeless.

And your Republican run cities are all crystal clean without a single issue, right?

 

[AEON]

And your Republican run cities are all crystal clean without a single issue, right?

Once the few remaining Democrats are voted out, they will be.

Kidding!

I'm not suggesting that Republicans are the answer for these downtrodden communities, but I am suggesting that Democrats are clearly not the answer. In fifty years of single party rule, they made a bad situation absolutely horrendous.

 

[BVS]

East St. Louis



East St. Louis was named an All-America City in 1959 by the National Civic League. Then they started electing Democrats…and only Democrats…

After over 50 years of electing nothing but Democrats…(I guess that people thought that sweet ol' Texas white man LBJ and his Great Society speeches were genuine.. and had nothing to do with the Immigration Act of 1965 - legislation that would keep African-American wages down to this day... )

… the racial makeup of the city is 97.74% Black or African-American (so much for racial diversity)
… Lacking sufficient tax revenues, the city cut back on maintenance, sewers failed and garbage pickup ceased (shit and garbage literally flow through streets). Police cars and radios stopped working. (translation: a filthy, smelly, crime-ridden Third World anarchy...if you have seen it with your own eyes, please confirm that is NO exaggeration. If you haven't seen East. St Louis...I challenge you to go. Go see the reality of Left ideology)

To an alien visiting Earth, they would wonder...how is it possible that virtually every city run by Democrats is a literal pile of sh*t!?! Why do these people keep voting Democrat? (oh....the promises...)

Thankfully, as this last election demonstrated, there is a trend of African-Americans finally parting ways with the false promises of the Democratic Party and the Left.

So, what is the Democrat Party response to losing the black vote and the free (no, they lost that in the Civil War) cheap labor to please their Big Business sponsors who will finance their re-elections? Oh, no worries, they say…they can still import it! (there is nothing better than importing cheap labor to keep wages down...well, there is one thing better: label those opposed to this wage-suppression as "Racist!")

You see, the Democrats want you to believe the parties have flip-flopped. Not true. The Democratic Party has consistently stood for one thing since the beginning, and one thing only….cheap labor! (which is why the elite funds them so strongly). After all, who could be angry at a man picking strawberries or lifting plywood for 10 cents an hour to feed his family? (while at the same time ignoring the US citizens, of all colors, displaced by this...)

One must wonder, based on pure data, is the Left really concerned about racism? Or, are they using false accusations of racism to supply their donors with cheap labor?

I contend, the Democratic Party, both in the past AND the present, has been the biggest enemy of the African American community on US soil. There is a MOUNTAIN of evidence to support this...Google, with all its flaws...is still decent at one thing: data. I challenge you to use numbers and verifiable data to prove this assertion wrong.

Source: East St. Louis, Illinois - Wikipedia

Wow, this is almost word for word what the White Nationalist leader who organized Unite The Right has said. He blames 1965 too, and the all black communities for America's breakdown.

He too eliminates all the other facts and ignores all the other Democratic cities.

 

[AEON]

Wow, this is almost word for word what the White Nationalist leader who organized Unite The Right has said. He blames 1965 too, and the all black communities for America's breakdown. .

White Nationalists blame the 1965 Immigration Act for changing America's racial demographic - even though leaders promised it would not. I am calling it out for its contribution to the destruction of the black working class communities.

He too eliminates all the other facts and ignores all the other Democratic cities.

Is it not a fact that legal and illegal immigration add to the supply of available labor? This makes labor cheaper - and it also has a terrible impact on the black working class communities. And is it not also true - that since 1965 - these areas are almost entirely run by Democrats?

 

[AEON]

I would like to add, that it has been nice to be here again. I know that this community certainly leans Left, and I don't expect much agreement. However, with only a few exceptions, I've been treated with fairness and respect. I've even noticed that BVS developed a sense of humor...

I do learn from you..and I hope, that in some small way, you learn from me. Thank you.