|04-01-2003, 04:00 PM||#46|
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Stow, MA, USA
Local Time: 12:02 PM
Ok, there is no way to justify the death of millions... But at the same time, compare both sides equally...__________________
As for the Kashmiri conflict (http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/5777/):
The people of Kashmir have been fighting for independence for the last fifty years. They are being butchered by the 700,000 Indian soldiers stationed there. Still the Kashmiris have not given up. The UN resolutions on Kashmir have yet to be implemented. However the UN is too busy starving the Iraqis than to implement its second oldest resolution. Now, the brave Kashmiris have decided to implement the resolutions themselves.
As in the words of Dr. Martin Luther King, winner of Nobel Peace Prize, "The ultimate tragedy is not the oppression and cruelty by the bad people but the silence over that by the good people".
This page does not condone the small minority of militants who have gone haywire in their quest, who cause grief to the civilians, be it Muslims, Hindus, or Sikhs. The struggle in Kashmir is against armed occupation by the Indian army. It is a struggle for the basic rights of freedom and democracy we all desire as human beings. In my opinion, a freedom struggle cannot last this long without the wishes of the people of Kashmir. If the Kashmiris on the other side of the border are joining the struggle, i wouldn't call it foreign meddling. The only solution to the problem of Kashmir is self determination by the people of Kashmir to decide their future, whether they want to stay with India, merge with Pakistan or create their own independent Kashmir. I feel that the only option that maybe acceptable to all sides is a free Kashmir, else neither country would ever back down in fear of an internal political backlash. Lets free Kashmir and end the bloodshed. A large majority of educated Kashmiris, Indians, and Pakistanis would agree with this, else we will just go deeper and deeper into the cycle of bloodshed.
The purpose of this page is not india bashing. Nor does it support the pakistani stance. The sole purpose of this page is to highlight the struggle of the people of Kashmir for freedom. The people of india and pakistan are peace loving. However, we cannot bury our heads in the sand and ignore the human rights violations. We cannot keep silent over the policies of the indian government with regards to Kashmir. We cannot ignore the killing of Kashmiri youth, we cannot sit silent while the genocide continues, we cannot watch while the kashmiri youth become orphans, we cannot watch the daily abuse of the kashmiris. The people of Kashmir deserve the right to decide their own destiny, to build their land, to work freely for a living, to practice their religion, to educate their youth, and to live a life without fear, without humiliation, without unlawful incarceration, without daily bloodshed, without daily searches, without discrimination.
Lets stop thinking of Kashmir as an issue of pride for india or pakistan. Kashmir was never a part of india nor pakistan, it has always been illegaly occupied by both since the UN resolutions ask for a plebicite. Lets stop kidding ourselves, this is not a for india or for pakistan issue, its about the people of Kashmir and their desires. Once we come to that realization, we can take a step in solving the issue.
Arun, I do admit, both the Indian gov't and Pakistani Gov't are both corrupt... They have been the cost of so many innocent lives...
HOwever, do not mix the conflict with the Arab Israeli Conflict with that of the Pakistan- India Conflict..
The Arab-Israeli conflict doesn't emphasize religion as it does geography and water...
The making of a Pakistani state has to do with the problems that arised between the clash of relgions and theology.. The Muslims were heavily opressed by their views and thus felt it necessary to form its own state.
it is sad that the conflict had 3 million killed... But the 3 million killed were NOT JUST HINDUS. This was a combination of ethnic backgrounds... Can you imagine, and yes this is sad, over 600 million Pakistanis, and Indians were killed in the Pakistan-Indian wars...
And till today, like you said Arun, many Muslim, Hindu, and Sikhs are suffering the consequences of the Indian-Pakistani wars...
But the fault doesn't lie directly on Pakistan. Paritially the fault lies in the Indian Government for not providing the care for these people... Instead the government has approved acts done by Hindu Fundementalists.
Recently in Gujrat, More than 2000 Muslim people have been killed by Hindu Fundementalists and about 100,000 people have been rendered homeless, and are currently housed in Refugee Camps in their own city.
NOw, proplems such as these are not seen in the US... But, the Indian Gov't has given the "go" to many Hindu Terrorist acts... And no one hears of them.
Also, Indian Gov't should re check its relations with the Tamal Tigers (extremist group in Sri lanka).. Indian gov't supports this terrorist group .
Arun, it is sad to see the numbers killed here.. And it gets me frusuturated to know that my tax money funds stuff like this...
But, remember, when you talk about the Islamic World, you can't blame a certain group (MUslims) for wanting a state... Their culture and religion is not appreciated and is supressed, so that is why their is a need for a state...
I didn't know that the Indian gov't funds schools for Muslims, where did you get that from?
I just pray that less innocent have to pay for the corrupt ways of the gov't...
But understand, that Pakistan is not at fault for all that were killed in the Pakistan-India War...
India was at fault for a whole list of other things, but, their are to many cities such as Gujrat, where you witness many killed, but the gov't approves of it and no one hears of it...
As for Kashmir, it is ruled by a Hindu Prince, and the majority of people are being supressed by his influence... Where as the majority are Muslim and would rather be part of Pakistan... IT IS AN ISSUE.
I don't want to compete with you... But, I am insulted by how you are insulting the state of Pakistan... It does not hold the perfect gov't , but India has a list of faults....
I have class, gtg,
|04-01-2003, 09:14 PM||#47|
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Stow, MA, USA
Local Time: 12:02 PM
well my point is meeganie..despite the fact that the hindus were completly and UTTERLY screwed. ...India doesn't use terrorism as a means of supporting it's political agenda. - Arun__________________
Ummm, hmmmmmmm, Arun, go tell that to the Indian Gov't today... Last time I checked, they were accusing Pakistan of supporting terrorist attacks in and surrounding India....
Hmmmmm, makes me wonder, India has supported the Tamal Tigers which represents a terrorist group thats strategy has been taken by groups like Al' Queda...
Their is no crime in telling the world what your people have been through, however, try not to exclude any innocent lives that have been taken in the process.
BY THE WAY, INDIA is not only occupied by Hindus, but Sikhs, Muslims, Christians, and other secs.... These people have faced their share of brutality, etc.
I don't like politics only because rarely do you find a "good" government... Most are corrupt, and greedy....
Rarely do you find honest leaders like Mandela....
I only wish that the victims of the corruption were the corrupt politicians and not the innocent civilians...
Anyways, I only hope and pray that countries can start to have TIME and SPACE to develope and not have big powers throw their views on them....
These countries need aid, of course, however, aid should be spread fairly and wisely... No country should suppressed water and food, this is the number one thing that causes terror in developing countries.... Thus, the rise of terrorism.
my head is starting to kill... I should probably end it here
sorry for my scattered thoughts,
|04-02-2003, 02:56 AM||#48|
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: on a one of these small green spots at that blue planet at the end of the milky way
Local Time: 01:02 PM
and it these wise words come back to my mind:
What makes this list even more impressive is that Resolutions can only pass if no permanent member of the security council dosn't veto (i'm sure you remember this one from the begining of the iraq crisis).
That means even the US who definetly does no antri-israeli foreign politics for sure signed all these 65 resolutions
Don't get me wrong, i'm glad that the US does no preemptive strike against Israel, i'm just shocked by the number of resolutions and by the international ignorance of that problem.
|04-02-2003, 08:16 PM||#49|
Join Date: Jun 2001
Local Time: 01:02 PM
(now the real post)
Now...lets be clear on this..there is no armed occupation of kasmir...it is indian territory. You can't occupy land that is part of your own country...it is part of india for reasons I describe below.
you dont' have a right to feel insulted about my discussion of pakistan than any other person on this forum ( americans for example) have to be offended when people discuss the polcies of this country regarding native americans and the iraqis killed by sanctions etc etc etc.
WHAT??? Amna..are you telling me that india sacntions the killing of muslims?????
Also..the tamil tigers..blew up rajiv gandhi..priminister of india from 84-89....so I don't think the argument that the tamil tigers are supported by the indian government are valid at all and in fact..its' false.
you can read about rajiv gandhi here
Amna the president of india....(not the prime minister)...is muslim...so I highly doubt you can argue the indian government has organized campaigns against muslims
you can read about the indian president ABDUL KALAM
on this site
Amna the indian government used troops to intervene to keep muslims in that area safe when those riots occured. India has 10 times as many muslims as pakistan ..if they were that upset over their treatment they wouldn't stay.
let's examine the poor treatment of muslims in india
1.) the indian government pays for poor muslims to take the haaj to mecca
2) muslims schools can recieve govt funding hindu schools can't
3.) muslims can request to be tried under sharia law hindus can't
4.) hindu temples cant' be built with government funds ..mosques can
I now see how their religion is oppressed and they need their own state....not
if this is poor treatment...I dont' know what to do ..because no ethnic minority in teh US even gets these concessions.
Also ...the history of kashmir is conviently left off the geocities site you cited ( and ....geocities is not a source of information).
kashmir was granted independance in 1947. 3 days later it was attacked by pakistan.
The hindu king had his desire to join India as a state RATIFIED by a muslim parliament before becomign part of india to recieve military protection.
A UN resolution saying kashmir shoudl ahve a plebacite to determine it's future was handed down
it was then after this a whle mess of insurrections took place and ethnic cleansing took place in kashmir.
On the basis that due to ethnic cleansing a fair plebacite cannot be reached
India denies kashmir the right to plebacite on these grounds...more than rightfully.
The Us would not let a state secede from the union India has a right to protect it's territorial iterests in kashmir.
10 million hindus live in refugee camps because of this...Ive seen it first hand (not all 10 million but I have seen some refugees)...to see people who are refugees in their own country.
the following is taken from a joint commitee white paper on kashmir
the title of the document is "genocide of hindus"....giving you some idea whena joint cimmittee doesn't hestiate to call waht's going on in kashmir genocide.
"In truth, it was the Hindu community in Kashmir which by its exhibition of tolerance and forebearance and a long campaign of education in secular values, laid the foundations of a secular, non-partisan and non- communal movement in the State. The declaration of the National Demand, which was issued by Hmdus and Muslim leaders of Kashmir in 1938, and which in the later days, formed the basic groundwork of the movement for self-government in the State, uas drafted by the Kashmiri, Hindu leaders. The Decleration of National Demand became the basis of the emergence of the National Conference in 1939.
The Muslim Conference, which spearheaded the Muslim agitation against the Dogra rule in the State, was converted into a secular organisation,the National Conference in l939,with active collaboration and support of the Hindus in Kashmir. The Hindus joined the ranks of the National Conference on the terms which the Muslim leaders laid down. The Muslim leaders who did not join the National Conference broke away to continue their struggle for the Muslims and aligned themselves with the Muslim League movement for Pakistan. They accused the Hindus of Kashmir, particularly the Kashmiri Pandits, of having divided the Muslims of the State on the instigation of the Congress and other Hindu leaders of India. This accusation was never washed away. The ideologues of the Muslim terrorism repeated the indictment.
The Hindus allowed the escheat of their landed estates, the confiscation of their properly, and their exclusion from the administration of the State and accepted political change which sought its legitimacy in the primacy of Islam, to provide the Government of India support in the United Nations, where the Indian representatives were seeking hard to prove more Muslim than the Muslim nation of Pakistan to justify the accession of the State to India. The Kashmiri Pandits went as far as to applaud the long harrangues delivered by Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah in the Security Council, which in substance, embodied the Muslim claims to the nationhood of Kashmir on the basis of the Muslim religious injunction.
The Hindus bore the first impact of the upheaval which followed the dismissal of Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah in 1953, and in fact, they took to the streets in support of the second Interim Government, demonstrating their solidarity with the Government of India. For twenty-two years, they fought with dogged resolution, the movement for plebiscite, which Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah and the Plebiscite Front led. After the Accord in 1975, they found themselves arraigned against the Pan-Islamic fundamentalism which assumed the leadership of the secessionist movement in the State after the Plebiscite Front was dissolved.
The secessionist forces charged them of obstructing the liberation of the Muslims in the State and the State Government charged them of acting on the behest of the Indian Government, to spread Hindu communalism in the State. The National Conference leaders charged the Kashmiri Hindus of acting as the agents of India. The Muslim wrath fell upon them, when widespread anti-Hindu riots broke out all over the south of Kashmir in 1986.
The Kashmiri Hindus earned the heaviest Muslim censure for their avowed opposition to the exclusion of the State from the constitutional organisation of India. They were openly branded the enemies of the Muslim identity of the State. Indeed, the Hindus all over the State, including the Sikhs and the Buddhists, did not approve of the exclusion of the State from the constitutional organisation of India. They implored with Nehru and the other Indian leaders not to allow the isolation of the State from the mainstream of the Indian political life. While a widespread agitation against the exclusion of the State from the constitutional organisation of India was launched by the Hindus in Jammu, the Hindus in Kashmir sent several communications to the Government of India, pointing out the dangers in excluding the State from the Indian political organisation and the damage that would be done to the evolution of integrated and secular political institutions in the State. The National Conference, the Plebiscite Front and the other Muslim organisations denounced the Hindus as the fifth column of Hindu communalists of India, who sought to end the Muslim identity of the State.
In the province of Jammu, the Muslim leaders of the National Conference cracked under the pressure of the dominant Hindu majority and frightened by the Hindu backlash offered to separate the Hindu majority districts of the province from the rest of the State. The Hindus of Jammu rejected the dismemberment of the State on communal lines and reemphasised their demand for the integration of the State in the secular political organisation of India. In Kashmir, however, they reduced the Hindus, particularly the Kashmiri Pandits, to a subject population, outcaste and branded them enemies ofthe cause of the Muslims and their religious identity.
Impoverished by their exclusion from the economic organisation of the State and their elimination from all the political processes, the Hindus lost their initiative and became the hostages to what was later called "the Muslim identity of Jammu and Kashmir". They were subject to religious persecution, their temples were desecrated; many of their temples disappeared completely, among them the famous temple of Vishnu located in the flank of Jama Masjid in Srinagar. As the secessionist forces gained the upper hand, pressure was mounted upon them and thousands of them abandoned their homes. No wonder that during the last four decades about two lakh of Kashmiri Hindus quutely migrated to the other pans of the country. The blitzkreig assault, the terrorists delivered upon the Hindus in the Valley in JanuaIy 1990, was the last blow, dealt out to them to uproot them completely and put an end to the last measure of resistance they still offered to Muslim communalism."
So amna...now you know why there are 700,000 indian soldiers in kashmir..plus ...the fact that pkaistan seems to have a loose definition of what a line of control is.
it's strange...because though ic an find some evidence of Kashimiri military leaders being found andkilled...I can't seem to
to find any allegation of genocide against muslims in kashmir....or any other part of india for that matter.
amna...would you care to educate about hindus livin in pakistan
well no need...I'll include this
thsi is a first hand account of a hindu living in pakistan
"No job higher than a clerk's post is given to a Hindu. In spite of four medals for securing first position in Four University examinations, and profound scholarship in Arabic, Persian, and Urdu I was refused a lecturer's post initially. No Hindu can run a business unless he has a Muslim as a sleeping partner. The Hindu shop-keepers and businessmen must give goods or groceries to Muslims on credit. When the businessmen go to the villages to collect the dues, they are threatened and some times murdered."
maybe they should let hindus be tried by something other than sharia law
Also there is a PBs documentary called " the Soul of India" in which those riots are documented...and they in fact show the concern of hindu political leaders over those riots. And the intervention of indian troops to stop it
|04-02-2003, 09:34 PM||#50|
Join Date: Jun 2001
Local Time: 01:02 PM
one last thing..the tamil tigers aren't even an indian organization they are sri lankan
so amna...I highly doubt you can hold this against india.
http://www.eelam.com/ ..is the homepage of their political wing.
|04-03-2003, 08:09 PM||#51|
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Stow, MA, USA
Local Time: 12:02 PM
one last thing..the tamil tigers aren't even an indian organization they are sri lankan - Arun__________________
Exactly, but they have a history of being supported by India.. so as far as the Indian gov't being clean of terrorist related issues... this is a big deal. Not at all is this representing an ideal way of dealing with issues.
Listen, I'm really sorry about the suppression of Hindu's in India... But at the same time, you can't compare this situation as a way to try and compare it with the Arab-Israeli conflict, then jump to the argument of the formation of Pakistan...
YOu come off sounding very confusing... and i don't know how to respond back.. But, my sympathies are with you....
But, I only pray things get better for the Hindus in that area...
At the same time, I think it is important to realize that the people of the West Bank are going through a completely different situation...
It seems like you want to prove that Muslims are whining babies... But, what Muslims are you talking about? Pakistani Muslims? Palestinian Muslims? Russian Muslims? American Muslims? Irish Muslims? African Muslims? Chinese Muslims? German Muslims? South American Muslims? What are you comparing?
What is your MAIN point?
thankyou for telling me what the Hindus are going through, i didn't know it was that bad....
But, please be more specific with the point your trying to come across with.... Or else you'd come out sounding more offensive..
You've got good information in what you say, but you taint a lot of things by your frusturation with Muslim World.
What you have to remember is that India and Pakistan hold so many refugees... Millions and Millions of children, Men, and women, are suffering because of Wars that happend in the past....
These poor people and refugees are in great need of help... They need education, food, and water.... But, the gov't that they are under are not taking the priorities of puting these people first....
Because of this, terrorists, death, and seperation b/w people occur....
What is in need is not trying to compare ethnic groups b/w eachother as a represenation on how to deal with things... This is what creates more of a clash and conflict...
What we need is to put aside our differences and help create a society where there is no poverty and opression.
Arun we can continue comparing number of Muslims supressed inthis world and number of Hindus that are suppressed... But, everyday, guess what, the number changes, sadly most cases it increases... But, the longer we sit and argue who gets more suppressed, the longer this situation will prolong....
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