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Old 02-15-2002, 01:28 PM   #31
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
jg, please study the Kyoto Protocol and America's reaction to it before you say things like this. Yes, America's economy was one of teh main reasons Bush rejected it.
But he also didn't liek the fact that China, one of the biggest violators of the environment, was not being called on to an hardly anything. There are other reasons, also.
But he's the President of the USA, for crying out loud. Not the president of The United Nations. His job is to look out for the people of the country he represents. Not France, not Russia. The USA. That is and should be his first and foremost consideration. If our economy really tanks, we are in dire straits.


I have, thanks. China's carbon dioxide emissions have fallen dramatically in the last decade (despite a growing economy) so they're working on it, while the U.S. emissions have risen. World ecology is more important than U.S. economy. The world ecology affects the people under the jurisdiction of The President of the United States for generations to come. But let's not worry about that, right? We'll be dead. Let our children's children worry about it.

[This message has been edited by joyfulgirl (edited 02-15-2002).]
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Old 02-15-2002, 02:24 PM   #32
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He is also working on something right now that is supposed to be a "compromise" to the agreement or something like that. I'm afraid I don't have any details though.

80'sU2is Best had a valid point in that he is the President of the US, and not the UN. Intrests at home come first, situation dictating of course, which is why he has the compromise.

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"The only fitting memorial for those lives that were lost is the idea that the world is forever changed by this moment in time, that it is a better more inclusive place, & that we cut off the OXYGEN SUPPLY to these CRAZY FANATICS!" ~Bono 11/05/01


"So Mr. Bin Laden, I hear you have an intrest in our airplanes...Let me show you this one, we like to call it the B-52
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Old 02-15-2002, 02:28 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by MissZooropa:
Thanks for reading my posts so well, and what I'm questioning. But please if you will post here, stay to the actual issue and try to read what's actually written. It seems like most others that has replyed sees what I'm at, american or not, except you.... But if you want to fight here for your country, I'm not the right person to fight with (and this thread is not the right either) because I like US and get personally offended by you accusing me of the opposite.... You don't defend your country very well.
I'm sorry but it's americans like you that make foreigners to dislike you. Humbleness? Heard of it?


yeah humilty...comparing my country to communist china...please lecture me on humility. There are many ways to ask that question politely.

Americans like me making foreigners hate us?...getting personal are we?


[This message has been edited by Arun V (edited 02-15-2002).]
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Old 02-15-2002, 02:43 PM   #34
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Still trying to understand how the ecology does not qualify as an "interest at home" for the U.S.

[This message has been edited by joyfulgirl (edited 02-15-2002).]
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Old 02-15-2002, 02:45 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V:

yeah humilty...comparing my country to communist china...please lecture me.
Since you are the only one that has replyed without reading what I'm actually writing, in ANY of my posts and anyway decides to accuse me of things that are not true (which I've tried to explain to you before. Like for example I DON'T compare US with China, I said that DoctorGonzos quote sounds like something going on in China, not in US).

I begin to wonder what you have against me and why you even bother to reply in the first place if you are not interested in the subject.
Once again, americans like you are the ones that makes the people around the world hate america/ns.

I would still want you to answer the first question I asked you when you decided to hate me. Do you actually think what DoctorGonzo said about america is a civilized way to treat people?
You haven't said one creative thing in this discussion, only rude things about someone you don't know and things that aren't true. I also start to wonder that you maybe think that I'm actually have a point but don't want to admit it.

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Old 02-15-2002, 08:02 PM   #36
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The military court only applies to those from other countries who are terrorist! Not to your average US citizen. Evidence may have to be withheld in some cases because it could be a National Security risk if it were exposed. That may not be great for individual rights, but it is a small price to pay to protect closely guarded secrets about military operations and intelligence gathering capabilities that are at this very moment PREVENTING terrorist from killing thousands of people! This is not even close to being the first time the USA has done this in war and given the circumstances, it is perfectly legitimate.
Its a pity that the trampling of a few peoples "rights" is seen by many people here to be more important than Global security and the lives of millions of people or those that have already lossed friends and family.
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Old 02-15-2002, 10:24 PM   #37
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Again..
The USA sets a benchmark and standard for the rest of the world.
Most other countries thru out the world BUILD WALLS to keep their people from ESCAPING.
The USA is the only country that has to build walls to KEEP PEOPLE OUT.
People DIE everyday trying to reach OUR BORDERS and OUR SHORES.
Peole ARE NOT DYING trying to get to IRAQ,CHINA,CUBA RUSSIA or AFGANISTAN last time I checked.
As far as Arun is concerned I know the kid, and I dont think he was meaning to inflict any ill will to anyone in this thread.
He loves his country and what his country is about.Bono also likes Arun- taking The American Flag from him for THE FIRST TIME during the 3rd leg of Elevation Tour shortly after Sept. 11 and then starting a trend for the rest of the tour and into the Superbowl.

The same night Bono also dedicated a song to Arun "Starring At The Sun".

As far as war tribunals these are different from standard trials in the states.

War is war it was never said to be pretty.
Lastly the same 'rhectoric' that Osama has attempted to teach of hate and evil towards the USA and wealthier countries to his impressionable uneducated minons some here are echoing this sediment.
I ve heard Bono along w/the rest of the free world slam and denounce Bin Ladin for this cowardly practice several times.

Peace
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[This message has been edited by Diamond The U2 Patriot (edited 02-15-2002).]
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Old 02-15-2002, 10:43 PM   #38
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Doc Gonzo..when it's your city that's taken out with a dirty nuke..your going to wonder where those tribunals were. Also some of the intelligence collected may compromise future intelligence operations and thus may be warranted. Also..as for teh genva convention that only applies to armies that represent a nation....Al Qaeda soldiers do not represent any nation and thus..are not held to the terms geneva convention.

And if it's Americans like me that make people hate the US...so be it, but I never belittled the country you were from. Nor did I ever make a personal attack on you..I may have disagreed but I never said that your the kind of person that makes people hate (please paste nationality here). I never spit on your face or your flag..so dont' spit on mine
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Old 02-15-2002, 11:50 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V:
Fine lets not police teh world, and then have all of you complain that the United states...the most powerful country in teh world, does nothing to bring stability to the world around them. You don't want us to be the world police fine, let saddam have kuwait, and Saudi Arabia, Let milosevic run free in eastern europe etc etc...personally...whenver I hear stuff like this..I sense inferiority complexes.

The question is not about the United States being or not the police of the world. There is no country that shall be the police of the world.

Some people from different horizons have being critisizing the United States for acting or not since perhaps the end of World War I. "Where was the USA during the '30s when Europe needed them", "Why the US went in Viet-Nam", etc... The United States of America (read President Bush) officially auto-proclaimed themselves as the police of the world, judges of the world regardless different major opinions, like the European Union one.

The question should not be "Why the USA is doing this" or "Why the USA is not doing this". First of all, the USA is the only left mega-power on this planet. The country who reached first position (first position usually means on a economic theme [read : numbers]) dosen't need to go higher, but wants to keep itself there. Therefore, the USA is not acting as the world's police, but is acting in keeping its position intact.

As I said, no country shall be the world's police because when a country (here, the most significant example : the USA) is interfering/acts it is not as an act of pure generosit, but is a deliberate act of protecting and, important, gaining interests. In a way, the USA being the "world's police" is another way of keeping their position on the top and gaining more and more interests all over the world. It has nothing to do with generosity. The attacks on Afghanistan where surely an act of "primitive" defense, but the continuation of the "war" on terrorism is a war for interests. Nothing to do with the objectivity a police would have (in the perfect world).

The United Nations should be the world's "police", though it needs a major reform to be so. The Security Counsil is anti-democratic, serving the interests of 5 countries, but in the great majority, serving the interests of the USA and China, mainly, with the vetos. France and the UK are not using this veto a lot and Russia is balancing itself. The Security Counsil, controlling most of the UN's actions, is a relic of the end of WWII, wich was at the time good in a messed-up world, but wich is a relic right now.

So as I said, there is no world police right now, its "only" a matter of interests (economic / military / political). Was the USA actiong as a police by supporting the UCK in Kosovo ? The UCK was supported financially by the CIA and by Bin Laden's Al-Qaida. Al Gore was calling the UCK : "The UCK Organization is the reflection of America's generosity and democracy"... UCK was financed by the CIA and by Al-Qaida. And, while I'm in the subject, Al-Qaida and the whole Political Islamist movement was all build-up by the help of the USA (through the CIA) in order to struggle the USSR in the 80s, and in the 90s in order to struggle the ex-USSR Republics of the middle-east regions. Bin Laden, one of the greatest opportunist (here, opportunism isn't a quality) then turned against the USA and we know the rest of the story.

But Bin Laden is a muppet. He was treated in private hospitals, during july 200I, in the USA and could have been arrested. Bin Laden is a pretext, a terrible pretext, even though he is one responsible. The attacks were the pretext of the USA to invade Afghanistan (wich is understandable, but not suitable by the form of the way it was done, to me and to a lot of sociologist/politicans). Bin Laden is also the pretext for the USA to officially proclaim themselves the King of the World and Judge of the World. What the world learned from Sept. II ? That it needs to watch out for the USA and that it needs a reform and more guts to stand up and say "no" when it means so. What the USA learned from Sept. II ? Are you an ordinary citizen or are you a member of the economical elite or a member of the Government, or a member of the CIA ? Depends....

By the way, while were on the intense subject, this is not a bashing to anyone. I remarked that people on this forum like to thing they are getting bashed.
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Old 02-16-2002, 03:02 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
In the U.S, you can be sentanced to death without ever being allowed to see the evidence against you.


Originally posted by the HORROR:

At what point were you labotomized? Do you even think before you post crap like this?
Why is this crap? It is the truth at the moment. The military court that the US has installed to try the prisoners of war (or wait, the US refuses to acknowledge them as such and therefore to withhold them the rights of the Geneva Convention) can sentence persons to death. In addition, it can withhold 'evidence' from the defense even though a judgement will be made based on the evidence.

I think it appears you have been lobotomized, based on your reaction.

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Old 02-16-2002, 03:14 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
But he also didn't liek the fact that China, one of the biggest violators of the environment, was not being called on to an hardly anything.
And how does rejecting Kyoto do anything to solve that problem?
Quote:
But he's the President of the USA, for crying out loud. Not the president of The United Nations. His job is to look out for the people of the country he represents. Not France, not Russia. The USA. That is and should be his first and foremost consideration. If our economy really tanks, we are in dire straits.
It is every country's responsibility to carry their part of the load in protecting the environment. If we carry on the way we are now, we're all going to be in much more dire straits than even the worst economical situation could cause. What good is a booming economy if you don't have clean air to breathe? This selfishness cannot go on! What the US is doing amounts to the same as declaring a nuclear-free zone in your back yard - the world around you doesn't disappear just because you close your eyes.

[This message has been edited by Klodomir (edited 02-15-2002).]
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Old 02-16-2002, 06:06 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diamond The U2 Patriot:
Again..
The USA sets a benchmark and standard for the rest of the world.
Most other countries thru out the world BUILD WALLS to keep their people from ESCAPING.
The USA is the only country that has to build walls to KEEP PEOPLE OUT.
People DIE everyday trying to reach OUR BORDERS and OUR SHORES.
Firstly, I don't wish to start a flame war, but I do find it offensive that anyone could be so arrogant as to claim their country sets a standard for the rest of the world. No country has the right to assume its beliefs should be the standard everyone else should aspire to. I'll echo everyone else who has said that the US has both good and bad aspects - just as every other country in the world.

Secondly, it's inaccurate to claim the US is the only country which "builds walls to keep people out." Most of the countries of Western Europe have a significant number of asylum seekers entering their countries. (although nowhere near as significant as many governments would have us believe). Maybe you've noticed the recent controversy in Australia regarding their treatment of asylum seekers and attempts to prevent them remaining in the country. Or the incident yesterday in the UK where a detention centre for asylum seekers was set on fire, allegedly in protest at the appalling treatment asylum seekers had received there.

And please, let's note that a tiny tiny percentage of all the refugees in the world will ever make it to Western Europe, the US or Australia. The vast majority stay much closer to home where it is a huge struggle for very poor countries to provide for them.

If people are so desperate to reach the US, or to reach the other countries I just listed, perhaps the people and governments of those countries should give more consideration to this when passing legislation about asylum seekers. If someone is so desperate to reach a country that they're literally willing to risk their life in the process, doesn't that tell you something about where they've come from? And doesn't it mean you should have some compassion and respect for them?


Quote:

Lastly the same 'rhectoric' that Osama has attempted to teach of hate and evil towards the USA and wealthier countries to his impressionable uneducated minons some here are echoing this sediment.
I ve heard Bono along w/the rest of the free world slam and denounce Bin Ladin for this cowardly practice several times.



I'll join in that condemnation of bin Laden and AlQuada. If they were responsible for the September 11th attacks then it was an utterly disgusting thing to do and there can never, never be any justification for such an act of violence.

However, I think it's wrong to compare anyone who criticises the US to bin Laden. I'm not 'uneducated' nor 'impressionable' and I don't hate America. I do, however, have some reservations about America's behaviour both during the current war and in the past. I think it's ridiculous to compare anyone who doesn't give 100% support to all US policies to a terrorist organisation. Surely it's more appropriate to describe as 'impressionable' those who will blindly accept whatever they are told by their government?
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Old 02-16-2002, 09:32 AM   #43
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Fizzing-
For the record-
I always examine all sides of an issue BEFORE I make a decision.
Living in America,- a free society, affords me this me this privlige.

Secondly-
For you to compare the immagration problems of the USA to other countries is ludicrous.
Please.

When and if your country is ever ransacked by terrorists who are you gonna call for support?

Diamond
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Old 02-16-2002, 10:16 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diamond The U2 Patriot:

For you to compare the immagration problems of the USA to other countries is ludicrous.
Please.
Could you explain why you think it's ludicrous?

[This message has been edited by FizzingWhizzbees (edited 02-16-2002).]
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Old 02-16-2002, 10:24 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diamond The U2 Patriot:
Fizzing-
For the record-
I always examine all sides of an issue BEFORE I make a decision.
Living in America,- a free society, affords me this me this privlige.

Db9

Here, we have american channels on television, even though we don't live in the USA. In a way, I approve having American channels here (CNN-ABC and a couple of others). I read, over the internet, american newspapers as well as newspapers from all over the world (in languages I can understand of course).

But when you say that you look both parts of a problem or a question, it raises questions I'd like you to answer. Again, because I remarked this forum likes to think its always offensed or bashed, I'm not bashing you, I'm asking a question.

The question is : where can you look both sides ? You are an american and despite my opinions on a lot of the american politics, etc, I agree that the United States offers more freedom than, lets say, Botswana. But all the american channels we have here (CNN-ABC-Mountain Lake [??]), all have the same opinion (or relatively the same). Last week, I decided to see what they were saying on CNN and there was a debate on the Taliban and Afghan prisonners in the american base of Guantanamo in Cuba. "Ah, lets see what the americans thinks of it". I thought "Woaw, they have two positions on it". Once man said "We must respect the Geneva Convention" and started to talk on the reasons why. The presenter of the programm, I don't recall the name, without any objectivity, started to "under-bash" the man for the Geneva Convention. It was clearly not objective questions, but direct attacks.

With all this apparent conscencus, that I also read in the newspaper editorials, where do you get both sides or other opinions than the great majority that you have in your country, currently ?

See you


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