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Old 01-23-2003, 06:26 PM   #76
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"Italy has been a mess all along, particularly emanating from the mess involved with unification in 1870 (where do you think the mafia originated from?). It has little to do with the U.S."

Italy certainly has problems, but it does enjoy one of the top 20 standards of living in the world according to the UN Human Development Report. There are probably more U2 fans per capita in Italy than in any other country in the world except maybe Ireland. Their not living in the dark ages.

The USA has strong ties to Italy with several large military bases in Italy and a heavy amount of trade between the two countries.

My special friend in Italy has told me that there are two Italy's, the North and the South. In the North, the economic situation is basically what you would find in the USA and Canada, while in the South, the situation in some places is like some places in Eastern Europe. Unemployment in the North has often averaged less than 7%(low by European standards) while in the south Unemployment has been as high as 17%. The Mafia works primarily in the South. Overall, Italy's unemployment rate has been about the average of the European Union rate.
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Old 01-23-2003, 06:29 PM   #77
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I agree with you. I guess "mess" was just a reference to the previous debate, and, mostly, I wanted to emphasize that it wasn't the U.S.' fault.

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Old 01-23-2003, 06:30 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
I forgot to mention Bosnia and Kosovo. Bosnia was a hell hole in the early 1990s and many people made the same remarks about sending US soldiers into Bosnia and later into Kosovo. "The factions there would never stop fighting and it would be a mess" they said if we sent in troops. 7 years later Not a single US soldier has been killed in combat in either Bosnia or Kosovo. Rather making the region there more unstable, US soldiers have brought peace,security, and stability compared to what was experienced in the 1990s.
The difference is that a mulitlateral, UN peacekeeping force was left to maintain order and rebuild. If the USA goes it alone in Iraq we may not be so successful.
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Old 01-23-2003, 09:20 PM   #79
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I just threw in the Italy remark as a joke. I know perfectly well that Italy's messy political history since unification has nothing to do with the US. I just happen to find the immensely short shelf life of Italian governments some what amusing.

As to the regime changes in Bosnia, and Serbia, I had up until recently supported those (though I can't say I'm happy to see another American puppet). But a friend of mine who knows the region pretty well recently told me that Milosovic was quite popular, and given the lack of evidence of genocide, I'll say that the US's motivation looks more suspect. Now I haven't had time to research these claims but lets say I submit these suppositions for discussion.
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Old 01-23-2003, 09:57 PM   #80
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Actually, it was NATO and not the United Nations that secured peace in both Bosnia and Kosovo. It was primarily, 90%, US military force that ended those conflicts, and the USA has provided the most troops of any country to such peace keeping activities in the aftermath there. In Iraq if military force is used and once the Iraqi military is defeated, the USA does have enough resources to handle with the rebuilding, considering that Iraq sits on top of the largest oil reserves on the planet after Saudi Arabia. A condition not found in Bosnia, Kosovo, and Afghanistan.

Milosovic is popular among some Serbs, but lets not forget that it was the Serb people who forced him out of office. Clearly Bosnian Muslims, Kosovo Muslims and Croations do not like Milosovic. They make up the vast majority of people that live in Bosnia and Kosovo.
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Old 01-28-2003, 10:30 AM   #81
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Imho the Kosovo wasn't a "success story" at all.
The (in these days conservative) German was part of the reason of the breakdown of Yougoslavia and Western countries did everything they can to *** the situation up.
(They transported weapons in red cross cars for example).

Yes, it was easy to win the war - but did you take a look how "reconstructed" this region is?
We helped some warlords, smuglers and terrorists to get their teritory. I just hope it dosn't get worse there.

The best thing from my point of view was that Milosevic had to go to the international court (I'm still still dissapointat that the US tries to sabotage this court - but that's another story)

The US army is great - the most powerfull of the world, and it's easy for them to gain military victories - but the more often the US Politics uses this "weapon" the more friends you will loose.
I guess there are not many left (and no - it's not a friend if he just says what you like because he's afraid of you)

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Old 01-28-2003, 03:42 PM   #82
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How many friend did the USA lose by acting in Bosnia and Kosovo? The USA wanted to do something as early as 1993, but the Europeans said no. Then in late 1995, the USA stepped up and did most of the military work to end the conflict in Bosnia while the majority of European militaries sat on the sideline. US forces stopped a slaughter that had killed over 250,000 people. How you could minimize the significance of that I'll never know. Things are not perfect in that region, but they are a far cry of what they were in their early 1990s. Economic and Political Development is a slow process. To expect better results than what has currently happened there would border on fantasy, in my opinion. In terms of the fighting that was stopped, it clearly was a "Success Story", and not a single loss of a US soldier in combat. Economic and Political Development takes decades, especially in a region with this type of history and ethnic hatred.
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Old 02-02-2003, 04:40 PM   #83
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Hi Sting,

i guess ex. Yougoslavia / Kosovo is a verry interesting thing.
It clearly was a "Success Story" from the military point of view. I have my problems with the legal background, because it wasn't an UN thing - and Europe made lots of mistakes there..
..but interesting, people down there became much more anti-american than anti european and lots of europeans think that it was another "US imperialsim thing"

so.. America lost sympathy even if it wasn't their fault.

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Old 02-02-2003, 04:49 PM   #84
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"people down there became much more anti-american than anti european and lots of europeans think that it was another "US imperialsim thing"

Definitely in Serbia and the small few who might have benefited from the on going war(that the USA stopped) in some way. There has been an anti-American movement in Europe for a very long time, so its not a surprise to see some of them lable US intervention in the Balkans as imperialism.
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Old 02-02-2003, 05:02 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Milosovic is popular among some Serbs, but lets not forget that it was the Serb people who forced him out of office. Clearly Bosnian Muslims, Kosovo Muslims and Croations do not like Milosovic. They make up the vast majority of people that live in Bosnia and Kosovo.
The Serbs forced Milosevic out of office when it suited them, and when they got tired of the bread lines.

Do you remember them wearing targets while their compatriots slaughtered people in Vukovar, Sarajevo and Srebrenica? Neither do I. That's because at that time, they were busy decorating their tanks with flowers, all aglow about the wonderful Adriatic coast that would finally be theirs. There was no meaningful talks of regime change until they lost every war they started.
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