US - Iraq: what do you think? - Page 5 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-22-2003, 12:52 AM   #61
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
speedracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: MD
Posts: 7,572
Local Time: 04:37 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Gabrielvox,

Your course of action can result in the deaths of innocent people as well.
And quite possibly over a far longer period of time.
__________________

__________________
speedracer is offline  
Old 01-22-2003, 06:45 AM   #62
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 04:37 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Gabrielvox,

Your course of action can result in the deaths of innocent people as well.


Two thumbs up from the "BRAINWASHED" supporter.

Gabrielvox, you make it personal. You attack posters and not ideas. From calling STING an iBot to me being brainwashed. That's ok we can take it, see through it, and still argue the points.

Peace
__________________

__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 01-22-2003, 08:32 AM   #63
Ghost of Love
 
gvox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: In The Ballroom of The Crystal Lights
Posts: 19,834
Local Time: 04:37 AM
If anyone in today's age sincerely believes that war will ever be a means to lasting peace, they are a robot brainwashed by a very sick society.

If you find that insults you, perhaps the shoe fits too well.
__________________
ACROBAT - U2 Tribute on Facebook


http://home.cogeco.ca/~october/images/sheeep.jpg

Don't push this button:
 
I'm serious, don't!

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyagu_Anaykus View Post
Interference is my Earth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gvox View Post
Consequently, Earth is an experimental disaster.
 

If you keep going, you have only your self to blame

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Best Interferencer On The Damn Planet View Post
Edge:
too sexy for his amp
too sexy for his cap
too sexy for that god-damned headset
I told you








gvox is offline  
Old 01-22-2003, 08:57 AM   #64
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 04:37 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by gabrielvox
If anyone in today's age sincerely believes that war will ever be a means to lasting peace, they are a robot brainwashed by a very sick society.

If you find that insults you, perhaps the shoe fits too well.
In a historical sense, independent of ideology, war is the only thing that actually *does* bring change. Erase World War II and the Cold War, and you likely erase much of the technological and cultural advances of the past 50 years--despite of the fact that the war itself is such a terrible event. In fact, dare I say, World War II ended nearly an eternity of Europe fighting amongst itself.

Alas, I wish I could say that diplomacy was as powerful as war. India's independence from Britain through activism was a rare event indeed. The fact of the matter, though, is that, globally, we aren't sophisticated enough to make it to full diplomatic resolutions to all conflicts. We still have too many people who only understand one thing: death. If it wasn't for the threat of annihilation, Iraq wouldn't have even accepted even the charade of UN weapons inspections. If it wasn't for the threat of nuclear war, the U.S. wouldn't even give North Korea the time of day.

Not that I necessarily applaud the way this world is, nor everything that Bush has done, but we have to be realistic.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 01-22-2003, 11:25 AM   #65
Ghost of Love
 
gvox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: In The Ballroom of The Crystal Lights
Posts: 19,834
Local Time: 04:37 AM
And I agree with you Melon. I think this has got to be one of the sickest things about the human condition, that we so far have only been able to effect change through violence.

The real question is: has mankind REALLY tried any other way?

I think it is time we gave peace a chance.
__________________
ACROBAT - U2 Tribute on Facebook


http://home.cogeco.ca/~october/images/sheeep.jpg

Don't push this button:
 
I'm serious, don't!

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyagu_Anaykus View Post
Interference is my Earth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gvox View Post
Consequently, Earth is an experimental disaster.
 

If you keep going, you have only your self to blame

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Best Interferencer On The Damn Planet View Post
Edge:
too sexy for his amp
too sexy for his cap
too sexy for that god-damned headset
I told you








gvox is offline  
Old 01-22-2003, 01:30 PM   #66
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 01:37 AM
Here at interference we believe in peace.
__________________
deep is offline  
Old 01-22-2003, 04:01 PM   #67
Refugee
 
Klaus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: on a one of these small green spots at that blue planet at the end of the milky way
Posts: 2,432
Local Time: 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon


In a historical sense, independent of ideology, war is the only thing that actually *does* bring change. Erase World War II and the Cold War, and you likely erase much of the technological and cultural advances of the past 50 years--despite of the fact that the war itself is such a terrible event. In fact, dare I say, World War II ended nearly an eternity of Europe fighting amongst itself.
If people would invest just 1/10 of their inteligence, energy and money they need for the war to save the peace instead, most wars would be useless (oh sorry, today we call it "active defense").

Europe is a interesting example. The Romans, the French and the Germans failed to unite Europe in war - after Worldwar II politicans like C. de Gaulle and K. Adenauer tried somethin new, starting with the Elysée contract.

Just a little more friendship and trust instead of knowing it all better and force the others to do as we think it has to be .. that seems to work out well, as we can see now in Europe.

Quote:
Originally posted by melon

Alas, I wish I could say that diplomacy was as powerful as war. India's independence from Britain through activism was a rare event indeed. The fact of the matter, though, is that, globally, we aren't sophisticated enough to make it to full diplomatic resolutions to all conflicts. We still have too many people who only understand one thing: death.
For me it proves only that the world has much more countries with powerfull armies than countries with leaders who are intelligent enough to solve problems without killing innocent people.

War never prooved who was right - just who had the better combination of power and luck.

Quote:
Originally posted by melon
If it wasn't for the threat of annihilation, Iraq wouldn't have even accepted even the charade of UN weapons inspections. If it wasn't for the threat of nuclear war, the U.S. wouldn't even give North Korea the time of day.
Well i guess the decision pro iraq war was done a few months ago, what we do now is trying to legetimate that war morally, we try to make sadam biger than he is so that we have to "defend".

And i'm curious which are the next countries. North Korea pretty sure, Iran? maybe, it's one of he countries which improved a lot since we (the western world) stopped to "help" them. It could become a interesting model of a Islam democracy.. well we will see.

In Europe our history shows that we can trust the United States (ok, maybe we were a little lucky because the USSR forced the US and Europe to become alies).
In the arabic world the US helped lots of dictators to remove legal regimes, so don't be surprised if they don't trust us... and don't be surpised that they will really hate us if we fail to turn Iraq into a democratic country and just installed a pro western regime which will supply the US with military bases and cheap oil.

Klaus (who still believes in love )
__________________
Klaus is offline  
Old 01-22-2003, 04:18 PM   #68
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 04:37 AM
Just want to say excellent posts Klaus and Melon!

Klaus we have missed your point of view around here! Welcome back.

Peace
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 01-23-2003, 11:12 AM   #69
Acrobat
 
Blacksword's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 389
Local Time: 09:37 AM
One of my main concerns is the regime change as well. Though my information is far from extensive, it seems fairly clear to me that any post-Saddam Iraq will be a disaster. Most of the opposition is in exile, totally out of touch with the people and they all despise each other only slightly less than they do Saddam. Any attempt at a democratic government with that lot will collapse into ararchy the minute US forces leave. Plus I don't imagine any new regime will solve the persecution of the Kurds. If the US doesn't want civil war they'll have to stay in Iraq for quite a long time and be prepared to dump tonnes of money into the country to rebuild the oil infrastucture alone. The longer the US stays in Iraq the stronger anti-US sentiment in the region will grow. With the US next door I have no doubt the reactionaries in Iran will have all the excuse they need to turn the clock back a notch or two. Iraq will force the US into a hands on imperialism rahter than the cleaner economic and covert (aka local strongman approach) imperialism it has practiced pretty much since the 1920's. US troops will inflame the region and that more than the invasion itself will lead to terrorist attacks.
__________________
Blacksword is offline  
Old 01-23-2003, 04:23 PM   #70
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 09:37 AM
The idea that USA troops in Iraq will inflame the region goes against the facts of what happened in the 1991 Gulf War. It goes against whats been happening in Afghanistan for over a year now. US troops have been stationed in Kuwait since 1991. Iraqi Oil wealth, properly distributed among the Iraqi people, will help to build the most proseperous and democratic society the Arab world has ever seen. Iran is about to undergo a massive population boom which will sweep the conservatives from that country. Regime change by the USA is often the best thing that can happen to a country as Germany, Japan and Italy show. Clearly, the people of Iraq will be far better off with Saddam gone.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 01-23-2003, 04:38 PM   #71
Acrobat
 
Blacksword's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 389
Local Time: 09:37 AM
In theory yes but its the practice I'm not so sure atleast in the short term. All the cases you bring up took a long time to come to fruition (and Italy is still a mess ). Also keep in mind that Germany and Japan were very different cases from Iraq. Both were at the end of WW2 and were mandated by the war and were not done by the US alone - well Japan was mostly US since the US was the closest country and Britian had its own worries with rebuilding and all. But also keep in mind how long Us troops were in Japan for. Also Us troops in Kuwait is a much different thing from US troops in Iraq. Iraq is a) a much lager country b) is a much more important counrty in the mind of the region, historically and in terms of it's resources c) not everyone in Iraq is going to be overjoyed to see US troops, Saddam's personal army among them. You could be right Sting2 but I wouldn't bet on the Arab world liking the US in one of its great nations for several years. I know I wouldn't want them there.
__________________
Blacksword is offline  
Old 01-23-2003, 05:24 PM   #72
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 09:37 AM
I forgot to mention Bosnia and Kosovo. Bosnia was a hell hole in the early 1990s and many people made the same remarks about sending US soldiers into Bosnia and later into Kosovo. "The factions there would never stop fighting and it would be a mess" they said if we sent in troops. 7 years later Not a single US soldier has been killed in combat in either Bosnia or Kosovo. Rather making the region there more unstable, US soldiers have brought peace,security, and stability compared to what was experienced in the 1990s.

By the way I have friends in Italy who might challenge your idea that Italy is still a mess. Well, at least Northern Italy.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 01-23-2003, 05:30 PM   #73
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 04:37 AM
Careful Sting, Ramsay Clarke has a War Crimes Tribunal in the area as well........

__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 01-23-2003, 05:44 PM   #74
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 04:37 AM
Italy has been a mess all along, particularly emanating from the mess involved with unification in 1870 (where do you think the mafia originated from?). It has little to do with the U.S.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 01-23-2003, 05:46 PM   #75
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 04:37 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Careful Sting, Ramsay Clarke has a War Crimes Tribunal in the area as well........

This was a feeble attempt at humor sorry. It carried over from the BOY thread. I won't let it happen again.
__________________

__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com